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Post by mikecubs on Jun 30, 2016 22:06:14 GMT -6
The real question now is why Goodell keeps beating the new-stadium drum when the Bills owners don’t want him to. Is it because he thinks the league would somehow make more money even if the Bills owners are convinced they wouldn’t? Because having Buffalo in an old stadium hurts the argument of other team owners that they can’t possibly survive in their 20-year-old place? Because it doesn’t look shiny enough on TV? Because he’s just so used to playing bad cop that he can’t get out of character? All of the above? Your guess is as good as mine.
Read more: jetshockeyforum.proboards.com/thread/5910/general-nfl-stadium-ownership-issues#ixzz4D6kbuNHvi bold this section because we all know deMause hates this false line that new stadiums bring revenue or are even worth investing in. Money wise no they absolutely are NOT worth investing in. But DeMause takes too hard of a line because he has books to sell. If you went 0 public financing anywhere you'd have a handful of big elite markets in the 4 major sports. I do believe teams contribute community pride etc... and they are worth investing in WITHIN REASON! If we took the 0% public funding EVERYWHERE we would NOT be chatting right now because there would be no Jets! I do agree though it's gotten WAY out of hand. They should put rules in place nationally to limit what communities can spend. I'd have rules like this. 1. Leases must be longer than the standard 30 years. These new facilities are suppose to be great so why are you potentially giving them the life span of the old facilities. 2. It would be illegal to build stand alone NBA/NHL arenas in NBA/NHL markets(San Jose/San Francisco would be exempt though) 3. I'd eliminate the state of the art clauses. Cities will go broke on new scoreboards since technology always changes and gets better and better. 4. I'd have rules in place to prevent cities from having more teams than they can handle. Phoenix would NOT be allowed to try to be a 4 team market, St. Louis wouldn't have been allowed to try to be a 3 team market. 5. I'd have set % of how much the public can give. No free arenas/stadiums. I'd have it set by market too. In a HUGE market the public contribution is 0%. In smaller markets maybe 50ish%. 6. No arenas/stadiums build on speculation(No Quebecs or Tropicana Fields) 7. For NBA,MLB and especially NHL it would be illegal to build a suburban arena/stadium because they don't work. I'd make an exception for Arlington because the Rangers have always drawn well being in between Dallas/Fort Worth.
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Post by mikecubs on Jun 30, 2016 22:19:37 GMT -6
All in all this does royally suck. To be honest I'm very uncomfortable with Buffalo either way. It's hard business wise to argue to keep the leagues least valuable franchise in a market that is small and going backwards where the team president admits hey forget a new stadium it won't help. Think of it this way. What if the Coyotes moved to Veterans Memorial Coliseum build in the 1960's and said hey I know northern fans will laugh at this but we don't have fans who will buy luxury boxes and club seats so who cares we don't need them? Everyone would laugh their @ss off.
Heart wise it hurts. This isn't St. Louis where they steel a team from a town that loves them and have no long term history. The Bills have been there since 1960! Buffalo for a long time was absolutely a great league partner. Buffalo used to be a top 10 TV market back in the 60's. It's just that the NFL has outgrown the market because the NFL these days is big business and the city of Buffalo can no longer afford to go to games at NFL prices. Nor should they pay for a stadium with all their other troubles.
This is one of my worst sports fears other than concussions destroying the NFL/NHL. Losing St. Louis was great and made me VERY happy. If these rust belts keep going like they are the next teams they lose are going to be teams with VERY long histories and that will suck. Remember the Tampa Bay Rays owner predicted Montreal would come back around 2030 NOT by expansion but said a rust belt of some kind would lose their long time team because they could no longer keep up. These rult belt baseball teams go back to the 1800's like Cincinnati, Cleveland, Pittsburgh. I couldn't imagine losing a team that old. But look at Cleveland's attendance this year. They are last at 16,000 some with a 1st place club that won 12 in a row. And it's not like it was unexpected. Many people predicted they'd win the division. The team owner has also locked up ALL the young talent with long term deals so the excuse of ya they are winning but the players will all leave who cares isn't there. When they won the wild card a few years ago they average under 20,000.
The best thing to do would be to leave but leave the history behind as a thank you, we will consider you if you ever turn it around. Then bring them back! Who knows maybe Buffalo will some day find a way to integrate their economy somehow into Toronto's.
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Post by mikecubs on Jun 30, 2016 22:32:04 GMT -6
FYI, one other reason this sucks. I was ALWAYS the Buffalo Bills on super temco bowl in the 90's. I couldn't be the Bears(they were in major decline then) because my best friend would have killed me.
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Post by Bruinsfan on Jul 3, 2016 16:58:21 GMT -6
One thing we learned from Kroenke to LA was that the owners have huge power as a group against the players...against each other is another story. The most aggressive savy owner got to la, the two other chumps got second place looking in.
Pegula doesnt appear to be like Spanos and Davis.
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Post by mikecubs on Jul 3, 2016 23:22:55 GMT -6
Spanos finished 2nd Raiders 3rd. Part was Kroenke $$$, more power as you say, but he did have the better stadium(Carson was a joke) and he did have LA's favorite team too so that also helped. There were also other factors like trying to save the San Diego market if possible(not looking good right now) instead of St. Louis etc... But Kroenke wasn't on his own either. He had backing from the other big money owners(especially Jerry Jones).
The thing with the LA teaches us a few stuff.
1. The money guys are winning 2. They want to maximize $$$ 3. They aren't wired to think hey lets cut someone a break if a market can't support a team anymore based solely on the tradition/history of that market
Pegula at this point says they are studying it and taking their time. If he comes back and repeats/reaffirms what Brandon says it's going to be Pegula vs. the other 31 not family vs. money guys like in the LA battle. Even though Raiders/Chargers lost they did have their supporters. If it is really true that a new stadium would make no difference as much as it royally sucks it's impossible to justify the Buffalo Bills and VERY hard questions are going to be asked.
Peguala has a lot more $$$ than Spanos/Davis true but 31 vs. 1 would be really hard to win(if he comes to the same conclusion as Russ Brandon).
Something else to keep in mind. Ralph Wilson stadium was a compromise back even when it was built. The original plan was a dome. Stadiums like Arrowhead/Lambeau were built way ahead of their time and could at least be heavily renovated. The Ralph is unsaveable. Even the county admitted with a renovation at most it has 30 years of life left.
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Post by mikecubs on Jul 3, 2016 23:29:59 GMT -6
Here is more on Buffalo and how we got to this point Buffalo Bills Stadium Debate Proves NFL Owners Still Putting Money FirstBuffalo isn't an NFL city anymore. Oh, sure, it has the Buffalo Bills: a team with a classic-yet-iconic brand identity, a long, rich history full of great teams, legendary wins and Hall-of-Famers. Yes, those Bills have a tantalizing mix of talent and experience on the field, and the most entertaining coaching staff in football on the sidelines. The franchise, of course, is fanatically supported by a city and region with few other major league attractions. All of these unquestioned positives were acquired by Bills owners Terry and Kim Pegula less than two years ago in what commissioner Roger Goodell called, per NFL.com, a "great outcome for Western New York, Bills fans and the NFL." But none of that trumps the ability to build a palatial, state-of-the-art stadium. If NFL owners get their way, the Pegulas will either have to build in Buffalo or build somewhere else. "What does it take to make sure that the Bills remain here on a successful basis?" Goodell recently wondered out loud, per ESPN.com's Mike Rodak. "Stadiums are important, just to making sure that the team can continue to compete, not only throughout the NFL but also compete in this environment. Because we've got great facilities here now and the Bills have to stay up with that." Not long ago, it was perfectly fine for Jerry Jones to build his Dallas Cowboys a billion-dollar football palace while the rest of the league played in multi-use domes, publicly financed arenas or even crowdfunded bowls. Decades of egalitarian revenue-sharing and enforced competitive balance let each owner run their business to fit their resources and community. But once the 2011 collective bargaining agreement started counting stadium revenue streams towards the salary cap, the game changed: Now that Jerry's got one, everyone's got to get one. Since then, every new NFL stadium is more ambitious and ostentatious than the last. University of Phoenix Stadium was somehow meant to look like both a barrel cactus and a coiled snake. The new Mercedes-Benz Stadium in Atlanta is a cross between the Sydney Opera House and a Buckyball. The towering crystal cathedral that is U.S. Bank Stadium in Minnesota will only be outdone by Stan Kroenke's gargantuan Los Angeles development. Each new proposal or fly-through video focuses more on the incredible variety of ways corporate clients will be able to eat and drink and rub elbows while adjacent to the game, and less on anything having to do with football. Just look at the renderings of Kroenke's City of Champions complex: In all the shots, the stadium is somewhere in the background of the retail, condos, attractions, etc. Jones himself passionately believed in Kroenke's vision, per The MMQB's Peter King. In a 21-11 secret-ballot vote that went against their own expansion committee's recommendation, his fellow owners agreed: This is what the future of the NFL should look like. It doesn't look anything like Buffalo. "It gets tougher and tougher to compete when all these new stadiums are going up, and [the Bills are] going to be at a disadvantage, I think, somewhat competitively unless they get one," New York Giants owner John Mara told the Buffalo News' Vic Carucci. "We’d all like to see them get a new building."Western New York simply doesn't have the population or wealth to build a Kroenke-style NFL Disneyland, but the problems go much deeper than that: Even if the region drains its coffers to build a billion-dollar "NFLtainment" complex, nobody will be able to patronize it.(This is the entire problem, not who pays for the stadium but it may not matter if one magically fell out of the sky)"The key is to realize that we are not LA," team president Russ Brandon told Carucci. "We are not Atlanta. We're not Minneapolis. People say, 'Oh, we're very similar to Minneapolis.' They have 28 Fortune 500 companies in that community. We have zero. We have to be a regional operation. We know that. That's proven." The current large-capacity stadium and cheap ticket prices draw fans from all over the region—including across the border in Toronto, where the Bills have played home games in recent years. But the Bills can't tax all those out-of-market fans, soak them for PSLs, jack the ticket prices up to LA levels and expect a full building. Yes, modern NFL stadiums can wring an enormous amount of money out of their fanbases, but only if that money is there to begin with.Brandon told Sal Maiorana of the Democrat and Chronicle the Bills took a "very holistic approach" to the just-completed $130 million renovation of the stadium, considering the market, prices, available public funds, and deciding a significant face-lift with added fan amenities was just right for Buffalo. But it was wrong for the NFL. " I was not for that renovation," a league official anonymously told Carucci. "None of us were." The face-lift not only spent significant monies that could have been used towards a new facility, it makes it that much harder to convince Bills fans a new facility is needed. For 31 owners with their hands in each others' pockets, a new facility is needed. Every dollar of shared revenue Buffalo, the 51st-ranked television market in the U.S., can't generate is 3.13 cents the other owners aren't getting. All the history, tradition, support and success in the world means nothing to many of today's money-hungry owners if San Antonio will build the stadium Buffalo can't.As Carucci pointed out, Jones himself said the Pegulas "walked into the room" as a "top five" ownership group. Clearly, Jones believes the Pegulas fit into his grandiose vision for the NFL. For all their goodwill towards, investment in and promises to the region, the Pegulas spent $1.4 billion on a team that Forbes valued at at just $870 million. You don't pay almost double market value for an asset like that unless you know you're going to significantly raise the value of that asset, and adding a few suites to the Ralph won't make that happen."I think they think we need a new stadium," Terry Pegula told WGR (via NFL.com). "That's where they're coming from, so you need to listen to that and you make your own judgment." Kim Pegula told Maiorana: We’re in the fact-finding mode. We want to make sure we have all the information that is relative to our community, to our fan base. We’re not Atlanta, so it’s hard for us to say we’re going to build a stadium like Atlanta. We can’t. It’s not just a yes or no, it’s a lot more involved than that. We don’t talk about it now because we don’t have all the answers and we don’t want to get misconstrued because things change." Everything about the Pegulas' history suggests they're deeply committed to Bills fans and the Buffalo area. There's every reason to believe they'll take their time to exhaust every possibility to keep the Bills competitive in Western New York. But they didn't pay $1.4 billion to join this club if they didn't want to be a part of it. And with every passing day, the 31 other members count the money they're losing with a franchise stuck in a city that just doesn't fit in today's NFL.bleacherreport.com/articles/2648943-buffalo-bills-stadium-debate-proves-nfl-owners-still-putting-money-first
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Post by Bruinsfan on Jul 4, 2016 18:20:14 GMT -6
Pegula is an anomaly.
Again power over the players but no power policing each other. It is an absolute mess in that league. doomed sport imo, and it is my favorite sport.
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Post by mikecubs on Sept 1, 2021 7:06:27 GMT -6
Report: Buffalo Bills propose 60,000-seat stadium by 2027T he Buffalo Bills' proposed new $1.4 billion stadium would include about 60,000 seats and 60 suites, The Associated Press has learned. T he Bills' proposal includes a timeline for construction with a completion date pegged for no later than 2027 based on how quickly a deal can be struck, a person with direct knowledge of the documents presented to state and county officials told the AP on condition of anonymity because the plan has not been made public. The team's current lease expires in July 2023 and would be extended until the new facility is opened, should the project be approved by the state of New York and Erie County. The proposed capacity is about 12,000 seats fewer than the Bills' current facility, now called Highmark Stadium, which was built in 1973. The new venue would not include a roof, but it would be designed so that a majority of the seats would be protected from the elements, the source said.The team initially considered a larger stadium with a price tag of $1.6 billion before deciding to shrink the project, the person said.Discussions between the the Bills' parent company, Pegula Sports and Entertainment, and government officials opened in late May, with the parties holding an on-site tour at the Bills' aging home last week. At issue are how quickly a deal can be approved and how the construction costs would be split between the team and taxpayers. The Bills have already said team owners Terry and Kim Pegula are committed to sharing part of the cost, but they have not identified how much. T he expectation is the state and county will be asked to cover more than 50% of the project, raising concerns about the potential for taxpayer funding.
PSE's proposal is considered preliminary and subject to change based on discussions, with no renderings of the proposed facility having yet been submitted. Talks have been slowed in part because of New York's change in governor, with Kathy Hochul taking over last week following Andrew Cuomo's resignation. Hochul is from Buffalo, and she has already had contact with PSE officials. Her office released a statement to the AP on Monday that read: "No one is more committed to keeping the Bills in Buffalo than Gov. Kathy Hochul, a longtime Bills fan. Negotiations are ongoing, and her administration looks forward to sharing details with the public as soon as negotiations are completed." The $1.6 billion cost of New York Giants and Jets' shared facility of MetLife Stadium, which opened in 2010, was entirely privately funded. The Minnesota Vikings' $1.1 billion U.S. Bank Stadium, which opened in 2016, had taxpayers fund 45.2% of the cost. In Orchard Park, Highmark Stadium's $22 million construction tab in the early 1970s was picked up entirely by taxpayers. The Bills have ruled out the option of further renovations because they would be cost prohibitive in comparison to starting fresh. More than $130 million was committed to renovations as part of the previous lease agreement struck in 2013. A state-commissioned study conducted a year later projected the next round of renovations would cost $540 million, with a majority of the work dedicated to essentially rebuilding the entire third deck. That cost is projected to be much higher in today's dollars. The Pegulas, who purchased the Bills in 2014, say they have spent an additional $146 million on capital and game-day and stadium-related expenses, which included suite upgrades, a new training facility and expansion of practice fields. As part of a PSE-funded study launched in 2018, the team conducted an extensive analysis focusing on three potential stadium sites in and around Buffalo before opting to propose building the facility on a team-controlled parking lot across the street from its current home. The two other locations considered were on the University at Buffalo campus north of the city, and a downtown site on the land where the abandoned Perry projects sit empty. The projected cost of a downtown stadium came to $1.9 billion, not including necessary infrastructure upgrades, the person said. PSE has since hired Legends Global Planning, a stadium consulting firm controlled by Cowboys owner Jerry Jones and the New York Yankees. Also hired was a division of the company, Legends Global Sales, to oversee selling sponsorships and seat licensing for the prospective new stadium. PSE's submission includes an economic impact study, which concludes the team generates $361 million annually to the regional economy. Sports economists have pushed back on how much of an impact sports facilities have on local economies, and they question whether taxpayers should share the burden of the costs. That especially involves NFL stadiums because of the limited number of dates they are open based on the NFL's 17-game regular-season schedule, University of Chicago economist Allen Sanderson said. "The answer is zero: Sports stadiums are no catalysts for economic development," Sanderson said. "They just largely enrich the team and the league and the owner of the franchise." www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/32120353/report-buffalo-bills-propose-60000-seat-stadium-2027
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Post by mikecubs on Sept 1, 2021 7:14:12 GMT -6
The 60,000 seats would be the least in the NFL, the Chicago Bears Soldier Field is next at 61,500 seats. The 60 suites would be by far last in the league. Jacksonville is next at 91 suites. The Buffalo News reports that they may go up to 62,000 seats.
Buffalo is a dying rust belt with only 1.2M people. It's sad Toronto Crap the bed so bad on supporting the Bills in Toronto series. But the Bills do have a long history in Buffalo.
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Post by Bruinsfan on Oct 19, 2021 19:53:23 GMT -6
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Post by mikecubs on Oct 20, 2021 7:17:21 GMT -6
I've seen this. Would the city still be willing to build a new stadium? They'd be better off taking a money settlement. St. Louis is stuck at 2.9M and there isn't much around it plus the NFL poisoned an already bad market to top it off. The whole middle of the country and rural America is mostly dying from low birth rate, brain drain to the coasts and south and covid deaths due to low vaccination rate which will continue indefinitely. I suspect once the boomers start really dying off you will see shocking population losses in bigger rust belt cities like St. Louis, Buffalo, Cincinnati, Detroit, Cleveland.
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Post by Bruinsfan on Oct 20, 2021 18:21:14 GMT -6
It depends on an owner I think. Plenty of rich dudes looking for an NFL team so when you float it they might try and pull it off. The NFL will doit if they think they have 2-4 potential new buyers, no team for bezos, musk yet.
Where do you go after st Louis assuming they get a team because of discovery fear, San Diego and San Antonio seem like no brainers, The 4th is tough if they don't think London is possible.
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Post by mikecubs on Oct 21, 2021 8:02:56 GMT -6
It depends on an owner I think. Plenty of rich dudes looking for an NFL team so when you float it they might try and pull it off. The NFL will doit if they think they have 2-4 potential new buyers, no team for bezos, musk yet. Where do you go after st Louis assuming they get a team because of discovery fear, San Diego and San Antonio seem like no brainers, The 4th is tough if they don't think London is possible. Rich old dudes may have lots of other options. Spanos may sell the Chargers, I think the McCaskey's are going to sell after Virginia McCaskey dies(she is almost 99). That's why the push for the new stadium. I've read the NFL owners may want to appeal instead to federal judges since they are conservative and not local judges like the trial has had so far. I think the only way San Diego gets another team is Chargers move back.
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Post by mikecubs on Oct 21, 2021 8:06:13 GMT -6
Jerry Jones: Every opportunity was given for the Rams to remain in St. LouisThe pending lawsuit over the relocation of the Rams continues to generate not nearly as much attention as it should, what with a trial looming in January, all legal obstacles to that trial removed, and owners like Stan Kroenke and Jerry Jones facing a court order to disclose financial information in support of a potential punitive damages award or pay $1,000 each per day until they do. No NFL-owned or operated media entity — not NFL Network, NFL.com, or any team-run website — have even glanced at the third rail created by the Rams relocation litigation. To their credit, the folks at 105.3 The Fan (the Cowboys’ flagship radio station, at least for now) went there in a Friday visit with Jones, the audio of which was then posted without editing on the team’s official site. “I can appreciate St. Louis’s concern or St. Louis’s interest in losing an NFL team,” Jones said in response to a general inquiry about the status of the case. “And I see that. I know how special they are. And so it’s a product of that. I know first hand — first hand — I’m very familiar with Missouri, and I’m very familiar with how the Rams operated in Missouri. And Stan Kroenke’s commitment and the type of sensitivity that he had and his love for Missouri. I know all of that first hand. And it was outstanding. And so every opportunity was given for the Rams to remain in St. Louis, in my view. So having said that, hopefully this thing will seek its right level.” The folks in St. Louis may disagree with that. Strongly. Many would claim that Kroenke plotted the move from the moment he exercised a right of first refusal to match Shad Khan’s offer for the team after the passing of Georgia Frontiere. At the very latest, they’d say the plan fell into place when Kroenke bought the land in Inglewood on which SoFi Stadium would be built, followed by a series of alleged or actual lies about what he intended to do with it. At its core, the argument is that Kroenke was never going to stay in St. Louis, that he and the league went through the motions of the relocation guidelines pending an ownership-vote rubber stamp that would authorize a move, relocation guidelines be damned. And while folks like Jones would say that all’s fair in love, war, football, and multi-billion-dollar construction projects, lines may have been crossed. Barring a settlement, a trial will occur on that very question. Some of the scant national reporting on the subject suggests that the league is willing to hang its hat on the appeal process (which to date hasn’t done much to get the league what it wants, whether that’s an order compelling arbitration or a reversal of the mandate to surrender financial information). That could be what Jones means when he vaguely says that “hopefully this thing will seek its right level.” Its right appellate level, where judges with the power to review the decisions made in St. Louis will start overturning rulings and protecting business interests, like so many courts now do. T hat’s one of the very real, and overlooked, realities of the swing in many states toward conservative political ideologies. The judges who have those beliefs generally tend to interpret and apply the law in a way that protects people with money and power over those who lack either or both. It’s a basic fact, proven over and over again through years of American jurisprudence. And the NFL may be hanging its hat on the fact that, eventually and/or inevitably, the case will land on the docket of just enough judges who are of a red-hat mindset, allowing the league to escape whatever financial sanctions may be applied at the trial-court level.Of course, that won’t save Kroenke or Jones or other owners from having to testify in open court. That’s where the fireworks could happen, and no eventual reversal on appeal will rewind time to the moment before Kroenke or Jones or Roger Goodell or anyone else gets twisted into knots on the witness stand. profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/09/25/jerry-jones-every-opportunity-was-given-for-the-rams-to-remain-in-st-louis/
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Post by Bruinsfan on Nov 23, 2021 8:44:24 GMT -6
Yea i dont care about the merits, just these guys hate having their wallets and testimony released.
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