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Post by Man on the silver mountain on Jul 22, 2014 6:18:01 GMT -6
This isn't in direct response to the OP or any post specifically... Just a general post on the topic
1) I think his drafting has been pretty decent.
2) who do you want him to sign as a UFA? he doesn't sign someone he is doing nothing, he signs someone he over pays.
3) how does one know is isn't or wasn't in on a specific UFA, what if the UFA didn't want to come to Winnipeg?
4) he should make a trade for the sake of a shake up.... you know there needs to be two to tango right?
Cheveldayoff gets crapped on if he does, and gets crap on when he doesn't.
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Post by beller79 on Jul 22, 2014 7:41:01 GMT -6
1) Drafting has been good (Trouba, Scheifele) the rest are still up in the air but I like the picks.
2) I wanted him to make a move on some players to improve 3rd line / challenge for 2nd line. Perault does that, Bryan Boyle, Stempniak, Derek Roy all would have been good pick ups.
3) We don't know... don't know anything unless they make a comment or one of the TSN insiders say Winnipeg is in the race for specific FA
4) Yes, move is needed whether its for today or long term we need to make a few changes to the roster starting with Kane and Pav.
if we are out of the mix come trade deadline I think Buff is gonna move as well and get some prospects / picks back.
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Post by crazycanuck on Jul 22, 2014 9:29:45 GMT -6
I keep hearing about Chevy's 5 year plan but never heard or read it from Chevy himself? Did he ever share this plan with the media or fans? It is almost an urban myth but I will recant if someone can actually post his plan and not just what is assumed to be....
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 14:03:43 GMT -6
Sitting on your hands won't do anything. Look at what Dallas has done the last two offseasons. Other GM's should be taking notes from Jim Nill right now.
-Traded for Tyler Seguin (basically labeled a "distraction" in Boston) along with other pieces, without selling the farm, then watched as he finished in the top 5 in league scoring
-Drafted Valeri Nichushkin in spite of the "Russian Factor" (which I see as xenophobia, not all lazy players are Russian and not all Russians are lazy, remember Alex Daigle?)
-Acquired Shawn Horcoff for a bag of pucks (a 6th and Philip Larsen, now in the KHL)
-Traded away pending UFA Stephane Robidas and got something in return (even if it was a 4th it's better than him walking for nothing)
-Traded this offseason for Jason Spezza without giving up much at all (a couple of long shots to make the NHL, plus Alex Chiasson)
-Signed Aleš Hemský to a respectable contract
Just "drafting and developing" doesn't cut it unless you get a gamebreaker or two. The Jets are in the position the Flames were in until 2013: not good enough to make the playoffs, not bad enough to get a gamebreaking prospect in the draft, miled in mediocrity. Either go for it or blow it up.
Besides, look at the teams that started "rebuilding" in 2008. Islanders still suck, sure. But the Kings have a Cup, the Lightning get better every year, the Blues are one of the top teams in the league. Hell, even though the Jackets' pick flopped in the NHL (which I partially blame on Hitchcock trying to make a guy once called as offensively dynamic as Stamkos to play a defensive role), they still made the playoffs twice since then and put a scare into Pittsburgh last year.
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Post by wolfmannick on Jul 22, 2014 14:20:52 GMT -6
1) We have drafted well and a lot of that is luck. Scheifele and Trouba would go top 3 if they were drafted today no problem. We got lucky there, but sometime's that's all you need drafting is great.
2) We don't know what impact Scheif and Wheels will make with Kane on a full season. If he scores 40 goals and nets a bunch of assists as well who cares about Kane's attitude? He's getting paid to score goals, not be your drinking buddy. Give him time and see if he becomes the top 3 winger he was expected to be when the team came here.
3) We made an offer to Statsny apparently on July 1st he took us off the short list. Winnipeg isn't a contender right now so high end players don't want to go there. If Winnipeg was projected to compete for a Cup people will sign there. We signed Jolkenien coming off one of his best seasons, players are open to being Jets, but they also want to win.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 22, 2014 14:32:09 GMT -6
1) We have drafted well and a lot of that is luck. Scheifele and Trouba would go top 3 if they were drafted today no problem. We got lucky there, but sometime's that's all you need drafting is great. Trouba I could see (and I agree), but I'm not buying Scheifele. I'd say a 2011 redraft would see a top five of Landy, RNH, Brodin, Coots, and Saad (no particular order). Palat, Huberdeau, and Gibson would also go top 10. I think 7th is a fair, perhaps overly generous, place for Scheifele. |
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Post by jval07 on Jul 22, 2014 16:24:20 GMT -6
My biggest issues with Chevy is doing absolutely nothing at the last two trade deadlines and continues to allow Kane to do and say whatever he wants. St. Louis not happy, Yzerman deals him, Kesler not happy, Benning deals him. Spezza not happy, Murray deals him. What happened to developing a culture here. We have a huge sore with Kane and Chevy just sits back and defends him.
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Post by rainmanrh on Jul 22, 2014 17:05:49 GMT -6
My biggest issues with Chevy is doing absolutely nothing at the last two trade deadlines and continues to allow Kane to do and say whatever he wants. St. Louis not happy, Yzerman deals him, Kesler not happy, Benning deals him. Spezza not happy, Murray deals him. What happened to developing a culture here. We have a huge sore with Kane and Chevy just sits back and defends him. I'm sure Chevy has worked the issue. Just because you are looking to make a trade doesn't mean there is a deal that makes sense for the Jets. Remember not too long ago Vancouver had the same issue with a certain goalie. |
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Post by Grumpz on Jul 22, 2014 18:04:33 GMT -6
My biggest issues with Chevy is doing absolutely nothing at the last two trade deadlines and continues to allow Kane to do and say whatever he wants. St. Louis not happy, Yzerman deals him, Kesler not happy, Benning deals him. Spezza not happy, Murray deals him. What happened to developing a culture here. We have a huge sore with Kane and Chevy just sits back and defends him. Please confirm how we know Kane is not happy. He did sign a 6 yr deal, didn't he? He could of signed for less term. |
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 22, 2014 18:12:39 GMT -6
My biggest issues with Chevy is doing absolutely nothing at the last two trade deadlines and continues to allow Kane to do and say whatever he wants. St. Louis not happy, Yzerman deals him, Kesler not happy, Benning deals him. Spezza not happy, Murray deals him. What happened to developing a culture here. We have a huge sore with Kane and Chevy just sits back and defends him. Please confirm how we know Kane is not happy. He did sign a 6 yr deal, didn't he? He could of signed for less term. Yeah, guys like St Louis and Spezza made their desires to be traded known and it was then also relieved to the public. Kane has definitely not come out and said, I love Winnipeg, but there has been no official statement made that says Trade is requested on either side. Plus that 6 year deal has to say something about what he wanted. That being said, if he does want out, I say move him, but I don't think its fair to jump on chevy for doing nothing in regards to Kane. |
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 22, 2014 18:31:12 GMT -6
Besides, look at the teams that started "rebuilding" in 2008. Islanders still suck, sure. But the Kings have a Cup, the Lightning get better every year, the Blues are one of the top teams in the league. Hell, even though the Jackets' pick flopped in the NHL (which I partially blame on Hitchcock trying to make a guy once called as offensively dynamic as Stamkos to play a defensive role), they still made the playoffs twice since then and put a scare into Pittsburgh last year. As you said a rebuild that started in 2008. That is 2008-2014 or 6 NHL Seasons. The Kings have won 2 cups now, but the other teams you mention have had 3 more years then the Jets have to make their changes. Also some Major players on the Kings team were drafted in 2003, 2005 etc. If you were to say the Jets building started at 2011, that should give us to 2017-2018 season to be at the same level as the Lightning and Blue Jackets. Thats without having a number 1 pick selected too. Since 2000, Columbus had 8 draft picks in the top 6. (Not mention a #7 and two #8). In only the last 2 years have they "gotten better". Thats a lot of years to rebuild and get it right. Based on Columbus we have until 2022 to get better. However, if that happens, PLEASE KILL ME! We need time to do this, and 3 seasons is not nearly enough time. |
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Post by lenny on Jul 22, 2014 20:08:29 GMT -6
Besides, look at the teams that started "rebuilding" in 2008. Islanders still suck, sure. But the Kings have a Cup, the Lightning get better every year, the Blues are one of the top teams in the league. Hell, even though the Jackets' pick flopped in the NHL (which I partially blame on Hitchcock trying to make a guy once called as offensively dynamic as Stamkos to play a defensive role), they still made the playoffs twice since then and put a scare into Pittsburgh last year. As you said a rebuild that started in 2008. That is 2008-2014 or 6 NHL Seasons. The Kings have won 2 cups now, but the other teams you mention have had 3 more years then the Jets have to make their changes. Also some Major players on the Kings team were drafted in 2003, 2005 etc. If you were to say the Jets building started at 2011, that should give us to 2017-2018 season to be at the same level as the Lightning and Blue Jackets. Thats without having a number 1 pick selected too. Since 2000, Columbus had 8 draft picks in the top 6. (Not mention a #7 and two #8). In only the last 2 years have they "gotten better". Thats a lot of years to rebuild and get it right. Based on Columbus we have until 2022 to get better. However, if that happens, PLEASE KILL ME! We need time to do this, and 3 seasons is not nearly enough time. How do you continue to draw parallels between us and big market centers I don't know. The Kings are not a precedent for us for numerous reasons not the least of which it is (a) the biggest market with New York (b) a free agent place of choice. Why don't you stick with our very own beloved Thrashers/Jets instead of meandering all over and comparing us to big market centers. You know how long it took the Thrashers to make the playoffs? Roughly seven years since the 04-05 season was the lockout year. They started the 1990-2000 season and made the playoffs in the 2006-07 season. Columbus took eight years to make the playoffs as an expansion team (08-09 season - started in 2000-01 season with lockout year 04-05). So based on Columbus we should be in the playoffs by the 2018-19 season not 2022 as you suggest. In fact one would expect us to be there quicker because they were truly an expansion team and started from scratch did they not? Based on the Thrashers expansion history roughly in 2-3 (outermost the 2017-18 season - year 7) years which is about what most have been expecting since the "5 year plan" not to "get better" as you stated but make the playoffs. And yet they to were truly an expansion team were they not? It's harder to go from scratch and yet they did in an even shorter period than Columbus. So 3 more seasons is not only enough time it also comes under the Thrasher timeline they carved out in making the playoffs. It's a very slippery slope though in playing these number games. |
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 22, 2014 21:49:22 GMT -6
As you said a rebuild that started in 2008. That is 2008-2014 or 6 NHL Seasons. The Kings have won 2 cups now, but the other teams you mention have had 3 more years then the Jets have to make their changes. Also some Major players on the Kings team were drafted in 2003, 2005 etc. If you were to say the Jets building started at 2011, that should give us to 2017-2018 season to be at the same level as the Lightning and Blue Jackets. Thats without having a number 1 pick selected too. Since 2000, Columbus had 8 draft picks in the top 6. (Not mention a #7 and two #8). In only the last 2 years have they "gotten better". Thats a lot of years to rebuild and get it right. Based on Columbus we have until 2022 to get better. However, if that happens, PLEASE KILL ME! We need time to do this, and 3 seasons is not nearly enough time. How do you continue to draw parallels between us and big market centers I don't know. The Kings are not a precedent for us for numerous reasons not the least of which it is (a) the biggest market with New York (b) a free agent place of choice. Why don't you stick with our very own beloved Thrashers/Jets instead of meandering all over and comparing us to big market centers. You know how long it took the Thrashers to make the playoffs? Roughly seven years since the 04-05 season was the lockout year. They started the 1990-2000 season and made the playoffs in the 2006-07 season. Columbus took eight years to make the playoffs as an expansion team (08-09 season - started in 2000-01 season with lockout year 04-05). So based on Columbus we should be in the playoffs by the 2018-19 season not 2022 as you suggest. In fact one would expect us to be there quicker because they were truly an expansion team and started from scratch did they not? Based on the Thrashers expansion history roughly in 2-3 (outermost the 2017-18 season - year 7) years which is about what most have been expecting since the "5 year plan" not to "get better" as you stated but make the playoffs. And yet they to were truly an expansion team were they not? It's harder to go from scratch and yet they did in an even shorter period than Columbus. So 3 more seasons is not only enough time it also comes under the Thrasher timeline they carved out in making the playoffs. It's a very slippery slope though in playing these number games. 3 more seasons seems like a perfect amount of time to make the playoffs and a push for the cup (although I think we can do it in 5). 6 seasons to be a contender does seem to be the average around the NHL. At least we agree on that. As for Columbus, I was clearly overestimating by the Kill me please (should have put sarcasm smile face?) Plus I did actually forget the off year, my bad. Ever made a mistake, my first time. (Thats a joke!) My point was that Columbus didn't get better overnight. I also didn't use the term "get better" first, that was my replying to the other guy. However everything you said about Columbus is exactly what I was saying. In fact I would even say Columbus should have been there way earlier then 08-09 as they blew some high draft picks. As I have said all along and what you agreed to in your post is that 3 years is not enough, and 6 is more then enough. We need to remain patient. For the record I didn't bring up LA, I was responding to someone else. *EDIT: I see you clarrified the "Big Market" idea above. I get what you are saying, but remember Chicago only had 5 free agents on their 2010 Championship team, all the others were from Drafting or Trading Drafted players or picks. I do understand what you mean that a place like New York is more attractive then Winnipeg, but thats why it will take Winnipeg longer to build a winner cause we won't be buying one. However, even with buying a championship like New York tried to do for years, there was not a lot of success. A team still needs a core and a core is built through the draft, Chicago and LA both had one that was built a few years before making the final push. |
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Post by lenny on Jul 23, 2014 8:50:07 GMT -6
How do you continue to draw parallels between us and big market centers I don't know. The Kings are not a precedent for us for numerous reasons not the least of which it is (a) the biggest market with New York (b) a free agent place of choice. Why don't you stick with our very own beloved Thrashers/Jets instead of meandering all over and comparing us to big market centers. You know how long it took the Thrashers to make the playoffs? Roughly seven years since the 04-05 season was the lockout year. They started the 1990-2000 season and made the playoffs in the 2006-07 season. Columbus took eight years to make the playoffs as an expansion team (08-09 season - started in 2000-01 season with lockout year 04-05). So based on Columbus we should be in the playoffs by the 2018-19 season not 2022 as you suggest. In fact one would expect us to be there quicker because they were truly an expansion team and started from scratch did they not? Based on the Thrashers expansion history roughly in 2-3 (outermost the 2017-18 season - year 7) years which is about what most have been expecting since the "5 year plan" not to "get better" as you stated but make the playoffs. And yet they to were truly an expansion team were they not? It's harder to go from scratch and yet they did in an even shorter period than Columbus. So 3 more seasons is not only enough time it also comes under the Thrasher timeline they carved out in making the playoffs. It's a very slippery slope though in playing these number games. 3 more seasons seems like a perfect amount of time to make the playoffs and a push for the cup (although I think we can do it in 5). 6 seasons to be a contender does seem to be the average around the NHL. At least we agree on that. As for Columbus, I was clearly overestimating by the Kill me please (should have put sarcasm smile face?) Plus I did actually forget the off year, my bad. Ever made a mistake, my first time. (Thats a joke!) My point was that Columbus didn't get better overnight. I also didn't use the term "get better" first, that was my replying to the other guy. However everything you said about Columbus is exactly what I was saying. In fact I would even say Columbus should have been there way earlier then 08-09 as they blew some high draft picks. As I have said all along and what you agreed to in your post is that 3 years is not enough, and 6 is more then enough. We need to remain patient. For the record I didn't bring up LA, I was responding to someone else. *EDIT: I see you clarrified the "Big Market" idea above. I get what you are saying, but remember Chicago only had 5 free agents on their 2010 Championship team, all the others were from Drafting or Trading Drafted players or picks. I do understand what you mean that a place like New York is more attractive then Winnipeg, but thats why it will take Winnipeg longer to build a winner cause we won't be buying one. However, even with buying a championship like New York tried to do for years, there was not a lot of success. A team still needs a core and a core is built through the draft, Chicago and LA both had one that was built a few years before making the final push. The underlined is my point. Columbus and Atlanta which were/are smaller markets achieved playoff runs from scratch within the time periods noted. Now my point about not using big markets is not the pay factor because all NHL teams have set caps but the more attractive locations and to a lesser degree some winning pedigree has been created the last many years. We can't therefore use the buying excuse (as teams can in the MLB) but location. Therefore it is more reasonable to try to use places like Columbus, Nashville and maybe even Buffalo as more reasonable examples though each example will have its limited comparisons. Again, using another "from scratch" franchise, Nashville - took them only five years before they made the playoffs. They started the 1998-99 season and made the playoffs for the first time in the 2003-04 season taking a super Detroit team to six games. So how do we judge Chevy? We are a Canadian market. Unlike Tampa Bay, Florida, the former Atlanta, etc. we expect our hockey to be good and to give us winners. If Chevy can't do it in a reasonable time and I'm suggesting another two to three years or thereabouts (again, considering all the markets I've referred to: Atlanta, Columbus, Nashville, were "from scratch" franchises and one would expect a relocated team like Winnipeg to have at least some primary advantage over their historical situation) then he should be removed and someone else brought in until we get a winning formula. Again, there are limitations in trying to draw these sorts of comparisons but we have to start somewhere. |
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 23, 2014 9:28:17 GMT -6
I think its funny we went through all of that and we both have the same opinion. It should take 5-6 years to build a playoff team. If we are not there by then chevy must go...
I guess our differences lay in that i think we have a good start and chevy is doing ok so far. I see us getting closer and closer. A couple more years and we should be in the playoffs.
I just dont want us to be like atlanta and get there once and be done in 4. Even columbus got there but didnt do much. Then the teams go back to mediocrity. Look at the leafs, sure they made the playoffs and went to 7 but thats not success either. I hope that by building this way and not over spending through ufa or trades we can have a long term success.
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