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Post by Tim on Aug 23, 2011 6:08:00 GMT -6
I'm a insane canadian nationalist on message boards, and Gary Betman means everything he says, Ok I'm with you I was talking about other boards i've read including the old jets owner forum and some of the predictions on there. NOT YOU. As far as Bettman meaning what he says look at his actions since that video. The Jets have returned. Why didn't he push for a Houston or KC?? If Quebec City can get their act together and the Glendale City Counsel doesn't do something drastically stupid watch what will happen. I don't mean to defend Bettman, i think he's the worst commissioner of the 4 big sports, he added way too many teams in the NHL. He should have expanded much more slowly but there is NO anti-canada plot what so ever. I've heard certain Canadians claim a lot of insane stuff like the Jets will never return Bettman hates us, Bettman will never come back and will use the size of our arena as an excuse, he will pick Kansas City or Houston over us, they will never give us the Jets name back or Bettman will charge us too much money for the Jets name because he hates us(then he gives it back for free LOL). Look at how Bettman let Mark Chipman pick whatever opponent he wanted on opening night. This hardly sounds like a guy who hates Canada. He couldn't care less as would any comissioner in any sport weather a team is American or Canadian. All comissioners care about is $$$ and putting teams in good markets with modern arenas. What would you prefer Bettman to do about Quebec City? Move a team right now even though they don't have an arena funded? Why didn't he push for a Houston or KC?? They did not have the ownership group with big enough pockets to get it done in that kind of time period. To high of a risk/return ratio for investors there at this time. Look at how Bettman let Mark Chipman pick whatever opponent he wanted on opening nightFor 60 million dollars, Mark should have also got a All star Game and a Winters Classic. He paid a good price for the Habs! (Relocation fee lets see if that happens if there is a team moving from one US city to another US city in the future) I truly believe if there was an American owner in another city with deep enough pockets a year ago ready to buy a team that is were Atlanta would be. It would be cheaper for a Investor in the US to buy the Phoenix Coyotes set up a relocation clause, and move that team in 3 years then it would be to pay what Chipman and Thomson paid for a franchise. Why has nobody stepped up, the answer is simple in today's economy there isn't any American inverters ready to step up and buy a team because it is to big a financial risk, with the US economy in the toilet. Thanks again Mr Thomson, you were Gary's worst nightmare, but he wakes up every morning and must thank his lucky stars that you for pulling his a$$ out of a ringer!!!
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 23, 2011 7:15:21 GMT -6
I was talking about other boards i've read including the old jets owner forum and some of the predictions on there. NOT YOU. As far as Bettman meaning what he says look at his actions since that video. The Jets have returned. Why didn't he push for a Houston or KC?? If Quebec City can get their act together and the Glendale City Counsel doesn't do something drastically stupid watch what will happen. I don't mean to defend Bettman, i think he's the worst commissioner of the 4 big sports, he added way too many teams in the NHL. He should have expanded much more slowly but there is NO anti-canada plot what so ever. I've heard certain Canadians claim a lot of insane stuff like the Jets will never return Bettman hates us, Bettman will never come back and will use the size of our arena as an excuse, he will pick Kansas City or Houston over us, they will never give us the Jets name back or Bettman will charge us too much money for the Jets name because he hates us(then he gives it back for free LOL). Look at how Bettman let Mark Chipman pick whatever opponent he wanted on opening night. This hardly sounds like a guy who hates Canada. He couldn't care less as would any comissioner in any sport weather a team is American or Canadian. All comissioners care about is $$$ and putting teams in good markets with modern arenas. What would you prefer Bettman to do about Quebec City? Move a team right now even though they don't have an arena funded? Why didn't he push for a Houston or KC?? They did not have the ownership group with big enough pockets to get it done in that kind of time period. To high of a risk/return ratio for investors there at this time. Look at how Bettman let Mark Chipman pick whatever opponent he wanted on opening nightFor 60 million dollars, Mark should have also got a All star Game and a Winters Classic. He paid a good price for the Habs! (Relocation fee lets see if that happens if there is a team moving from one US city to another US city in the future) I truly believe if there was an American owner in another city with deep enough pockets a year ago ready to buy a team that is were Atlanta would be. It would be cheaper for a Investor in the US to buy the Phoenix Coyotes set up a relocation clause, and move that team in 3 years then it would be to pay what Chipman and Thomson paid for a franchise. Why has nobody stepped up, the answer is simple in today's economy there isn't any American inverters ready to step up and buy a team because it is to big a financial risk, with the US economy in the toilet. Thanks again Mr Thomson, you were Gary's worst nightmare, but he wakes up every morning and must thank his lucky stars that you for pulling his a$$ out of a ringer!!! LOL What paronoia. Some of you Canadians are deeply insecure. What are you going to say when the Nordiques return? Leslie Alexander is worth 1.2 billion dollars and tried for the NHL before and has a good arena. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_AlexanderBettman never even asked Houston about a team and he had years to do it so they could be ready in time for a team move. He knew a lot of teams were in trouble for a long long time. It didn't come as a suprise that Atlanta and Phoenix were struggling last year. They were struggling for a long time. Houston is already a huge city and one of the fastest growing in the US. Didn't you Canadian nationalist always accuse Bettman of wanting warm weather big population cities? Didn't you guys even joke about a Mexico City team? The reason Bettman never asked Houston if they wanted 1st crack is because he realizes there is no or limited interest in most of the south other than a few places and that his experiment mostly failed. It was worth a shot, if it worked he would have been a genius but it didn't. Thats why he has to be considered the worst comissioner of the big 4 sports. Why don't you ask Bettman to also just give you the Stanley Cup while your at it or eliminate the 23 American teams from the playoffs automatically before the season starts? How come Bettman is letting Winnipeg host NHL launch to start the season? Wouldn't he want to showcase a couple American teams instead of promoting those Canadians that he hates. He already has the money from Chipman and Thomson so why is he doing that? Doesn't make sense. I'm confused. The relocation fee was to help cover the cost of the Coyotes. If he could have gotten that from a US city he would have done the same thing. The reason he asked for it from Winnipeg is because he knew it was a great market with fans that actually attend games and they were despirate for hockey and would pay it, not as a punishment for being a foreign country. The reason he wouldn't charge a US team that is because they couldn't pay it because they don't have that type of support. The NFL is going to do the same thing with LA when the league returns. They are going to charge 100's of millions in relocation fees. Why? Not because they hate LA but because it is a huge city and great football market and they know they will pay. Sure it may be cheaper for a US invester to buy the Coyotes but the problem is they will lose their shirt in the long run because we don't have any open markets that can support a team anywhere at the level Quebec City can. Quebec City should have to pay more for a team because the team will have much higher value there than any relocation canidate in the US. The bottom line is if Quebec doesn't screw up this fall, the Glendale city counsil has 1 ounce of sanity and no idiot buyer steps up in Phoenix next year at this time Canada will have 8 hockey teams. But i still expect Canadian nationalist to be complaining with stuff like "he only picked Quebec because he had no other options" "He still hates us because Southern Ontario still doesn't have a 2nd team" "He still hates us because all 30 teams are not located in Canada". As far as David Thomson being a "nightmare" for Bettman thats just crazy talk. David Thomson is a dream come true for Bettman. Bettman got what he always wanted in Winnipeg. He wanted 3 things: fan support, an owner and modern arena. In 97 2 of the 3 were missing. When all 3 were achieved the NHL came back as they said they would. So far Quebec is 2 for 3. Make it 3 for 3 and the league will likely return unless something off the wall happens in Glendale. You still didn't answer my last question. Do you think the NHL should go back to Quebec without an arena deal done?
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Post by jetsorbust on Aug 23, 2011 8:34:25 GMT -6
This arguement is somewhat semantics.
I hate Bettman with every bone in my body, but will I try to win an arguement that he hates Canada? No, even though I do think there's some truth to it deep down. But he's going to give us (more specifically Chipman) some breaks as a new team, as far as who to play first, NHL Launch party, etc. These are just obvious business decisions.
It's quite possible (even likely I suppose) that Bettman doesn't "hate Canada" in the way we all think. But he certainly thought (and since he's an idiot I will say still thinks) that the promise land for the NHL lies in big, southern US cities.
Now, it may be that as MikeCubs is suggesting, that this isn't personal and was just his flawed business sense. Fair enough, could be it's pretty hard for us to say.
But it doesn't make us have to like him. And it does mean that he prefers the Southern US over smaller market / Canadian teams (even if it is just out of flawed business strategy and nothing personal). The thing is, that becomes a personal thing because we all know the NHL is a business, but we also all love hockey for it's history, the pride of the game and something a lot more pure than just a business.
So it's more than fair to hate Bettman, because he did his damn-dest to ruin the game for well over a decade.
The fact that he has realized what is right for the game is also right financially (i.e. moving back to Winnipeg) doesn't make me hate him any less.
BETTMAN SUCKS!
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Post by Tim on Aug 23, 2011 9:50:31 GMT -6
Why didn't he push for a Houston or KC?? They did not have the ownership group with big enough pockets to get it done in that kind of time period. To high of a risk/return ratio for investors there at this time. Look at how Bettman let Mark Chipman pick whatever opponent he wanted on opening nightFor 60 million dollars, Mark should have also got a All star Game and a Winters Classic. He paid a good price for the Habs! (Relocation fee lets see if that happens if there is a team moving from one US city to another US city in the future) I truly believe if there was an American owner in another city with deep enough pockets a year ago ready to buy a team that is were Atlanta would be. It would be cheaper for a Investor in the US to buy the Phoenix Coyotes set up a relocation clause, and move that team in 3 years then it would be to pay what Chipman and Thomson paid for a franchise. Why has nobody stepped up, the answer is simple in today's economy there isn't any American inverters ready to step up and buy a team because it is to big a financial risk, with the US economy in the toilet. Thanks again Mr Thomson, you were Gary's worst nightmare, but he wakes up every morning and must thank his lucky stars that you for pulling his a$$ out of a ringer!!! LOL What paronoia. Some of you Canadians are deeply insecure. What are you going to say when the Nordiques return? Leslie Alexander is worth 1.2 billion dollars and tried for the NHL before and has a good arena. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_AlexanderBettman never even asked Houston about a team and he had years to do it so they could be ready in time for a team move. He knew a lot of teams were in trouble for a long long time. It didn't come as a suprise that Atlanta and Phoenix were struggling last year. They were struggling for a long time. Houston is already a huge city and one of the fastest growing in the US. Didn't you Canadian nationalist always accuse Bettman of wanting warm weather big population cities? Didn't you guys even joke about a Mexico City team? The reason Bettman never asked Houston if they wanted 1st crack is because he realizes there is no or limited interest in most of the south other than a few places and that his experiment mostly failed. It was worth a shot, if it worked he would have been a genius but it didn't. Thats why he has to be considered the worst comissioner of the big 4 sports. Why don't you ask Bettman to also just give you the Stanley Cup while your at it or eliminate the 23 American teams from the playoffs automatically before the season starts? How come Bettman is letting Winnipeg host NHL launch to start the season? Wouldn't he want to showcase a couple American teams instead of promoting those Canadians that he hates. He already has the money from Chipman and Thomson so why is he doing that? Doesn't make sense. I'm confused. The relocation fee was to help cover the cost of the Coyotes. If he could have gotten that from a US city he would have done the same thing. The reason he asked for it from Winnipeg is because he knew it was a great market with fans that actually attend games and they were despirate for hockey and would pay it, not as a punishment for being a foreign country. The reason he wouldn't charge a US team that is because they couldn't pay it because they don't have that type of support. The NFL is going to do the same thing with LA when the league returns. They are going to charge 100's of millions in relocation fees. Why? Not because they hate LA but because it is a huge city and great football market and they know they will pay. Sure it may be cheaper for a US invester to buy the Coyotes but the problem is they will lose their shirt in the long run because we don't have any open markets that can support a team anywhere at the level Quebec City can. Quebec City should have to pay more for a team because the team will have much higher value there than any relocation canidate in the US. The bottom line is if Quebec doesn't screw up this fall, the Glendale city counsil has 1 ounce of sanity and no idiot buyer steps up in Phoenix next year at this time Canada will have 8 hockey teams. But i still expect Canadian nationalist to be complaining with stuff like "he only picked Quebec because he had no other options" "He still hates us because Southern Ontario still doesn't have a 2nd team" "He still hates us because all 30 teams are not located in Canada". As far as David Thomson being a "nightmare" for Bettman thats just crazy talk. David Thomson is a dream come true for Bettman. Bettman got what he always wanted in Winnipeg. He wanted 3 things: fan support, an owner and modern arena. In 97 2 of the 3 were missing. When all 3 were achieved the NHL came back as they said they would. So far Quebec is 2 for 3. Make it 3 for 3 and the league will likely return unless something off the wall happens in Glendale. You still didn't answer my last question. Do you think the NHL should go back to Quebec without an arena deal done? What paronoia. Some of you Canadians are deeply insecure. What are you going to say when the Nordiques return?They may return because it is what is best for hockey, not because it's something he wanted to do. If he was so passionate about hockey in Canada he would have put the same effort into saving the Canadian franchise back in the day as he is doing for Phoenix today. Gary's experiment failed and now the only way he can put a spin on it is buy coming back to places that should never have left. It is great P.R. one hell of a story, and he will milk it as much as he can. I guess the Phoenix home opener against Winnipeg is a coincidence. Why don't you ask Bettman to also just give you the Stanley Cup while your at it or eliminate the 23 American teams from the playoffs automatically before the season starts?Plain ignorant statement, "Could be a Gary sound byte"The relocation fee was to help cover the cost of the Coyotes. If he could have gotten that from a US city he would have done the same thing. The reason he asked for it from Winnipeg is because he knew it was a great market with fans that actually attend games and they were despirate for hockey and would pay it, not as a punishment for being a foreign country. The reason he wouldn't charge a US team that is because they couldn't pay it because they don't have that type of support.So if we did not pay this fee we would not have gotten a team, but in the US they would refuse to pay that fee, but would they still get the team Ya probably, sounds fair to me, and remember you said it! But i still expect Canadian nationalist to be complaining with stuff like "he only picked Quebec because he had no other options" "He still hates us because Southern Ontario still doesn't have a 2nd team" "He still hates us because all 30 teams are not located in Canada". When Canadians complain more then likely we have a legitimate reason, remember it's our game the more idiots like Gary mess with it the more it hurts the game. We are all about the game because in Canada it is our passion like baseball is to an American.
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Post by Douggy-D on Aug 23, 2011 10:14:01 GMT -6
Let's not forget that all 3 times a Canadian team has faced a sunbelt team in the Finals the sunbelt team won. Anaheim was clearly the better team in the series against Ottawa, and I don't remember that much of the Carolina-Edmonton Series, but we all know about Game 6 of Calgary-Tampa when Khabibulin stopped the puck around the goal line, it's hard to say whether or not the puck went in, but the play wasn't even renewed. That's just BS.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 24, 2011 0:44:55 GMT -6
This arguement is somewhat semantics. I hate Bettman with every bone in my body, but will I try to win an arguement that he hates Canada? No, even though I do think there's some truth to it deep down. But he's going to give us (more specifically Chipman) some breaks as a new team, as far as who to play first, NHL Launch party, etc. These are just obvious business decisions. It's quite possible (even likely I suppose) that Bettman doesn't "hate Canada" in the way we all think. But he certainly thought (and since he's an idiot I will say still thinks) that the promise land for the NHL lies in big, southern US cities. Now, it may be that as MikeCubs is suggesting, that this isn't personal and was just his flawed business sense. Fair enough, could be it's pretty hard for us to say. But it doesn't make us have to like him. And it does mean that he prefers the Southern US over smaller market / Canadian teams (even if it is just out of flawed business strategy and nothing personal). The thing is, that becomes a personal thing because we all know the NHL is a business, but we also all love hockey for it's history, the pride of the game and something a lot more pure than just a business. So it's more than fair to hate Bettman, because he did his damn-dest to ruin the game for well over a decade. The fact that he has realized what is right for the game is also right financially (i.e. moving back to Winnipeg) doesn't make me hate him any less. BETTMAN SUCKS! I agree with you except i don't think Bettman thinks the US south is the promised land anymore or that he favors them over small market Canada teams. I know he's not the brightest but no way is he that stupid. Other than Quebec CIty what other small market Canada cities do you suggest? Bettmans problem is that other than Quebec and Southern Ontario he doesn't have any place to move some of these teams so he MUST have some of them succeed or at least not become Atlanta/Phoenix like. It's easy to say move a team to Hartford or Seattle but they don't have arenas and in this economy arenas are unlikely for a long time. I agree with your last paragraph about the love of the game and its history. That is what lead to a lot of these illogical conclusions that he doesn't like Canada or there is some type of plot. The entire arguement is emotion based. Bettman works for the owners and they all thought they could make the game into the NBA in the 90's which was a huge mistake. In the other 3 sports the cities with the biggest populations usually are the most valuable and produce the most revenue unless they have an outdated area/stadium so they looked at Atlanta, Phoenix, Florida etc. and thought it would be the same for hockey. What they didn't realize is that hockey is the 4th most popular sport in the US and it will never be as popular as the other 3 sports. Then you have to compete with college football in the south and NASCAR which makes it even harder. I think Bettman should be fired too. With the amount of teams losing money and all the empty seats i don't see how he can keep his job.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 24, 2011 1:39:52 GMT -6
LOL What paronoia. Some of you Canadians are deeply insecure. What are you going to say when the Nordiques return? Leslie Alexander is worth 1.2 billion dollars and tried for the NHL before and has a good arena. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leslie_AlexanderBettman never even asked Houston about a team and he had years to do it so they could be ready in time for a team move. He knew a lot of teams were in trouble for a long long time. It didn't come as a suprise that Atlanta and Phoenix were struggling last year. They were struggling for a long time. Houston is already a huge city and one of the fastest growing in the US. Didn't you Canadian nationalist always accuse Bettman of wanting warm weather big population cities? Didn't you guys even joke about a Mexico City team? The reason Bettman never asked Houston if they wanted 1st crack is because he realizes there is no or limited interest in most of the south other than a few places and that his experiment mostly failed. It was worth a shot, if it worked he would have been a genius but it didn't. Thats why he has to be considered the worst comissioner of the big 4 sports. Why don't you ask Bettman to also just give you the Stanley Cup while your at it or eliminate the 23 American teams from the playoffs automatically before the season starts? How come Bettman is letting Winnipeg host NHL launch to start the season? Wouldn't he want to showcase a couple American teams instead of promoting those Canadians that he hates. He already has the money from Chipman and Thomson so why is he doing that? Doesn't make sense. I'm confused. The relocation fee was to help cover the cost of the Coyotes. If he could have gotten that from a US city he would have done the same thing. The reason he asked for it from Winnipeg is because he knew it was a great market with fans that actually attend games and they were despirate for hockey and would pay it, not as a punishment for being a foreign country. The reason he wouldn't charge a US team that is because they couldn't pay it because they don't have that type of support. The NFL is going to do the same thing with LA when the league returns. They are going to charge 100's of millions in relocation fees. Why? Not because they hate LA but because it is a huge city and great football market and they know they will pay. Sure it may be cheaper for a US invester to buy the Coyotes but the problem is they will lose their shirt in the long run because we don't have any open markets that can support a team anywhere at the level Quebec City can. Quebec City should have to pay more for a team because the team will have much higher value there than any relocation canidate in the US. The bottom line is if Quebec doesn't screw up this fall, the Glendale city counsil has 1 ounce of sanity and no idiot buyer steps up in Phoenix next year at this time Canada will have 8 hockey teams. But i still expect Canadian nationalist to be complaining with stuff like "he only picked Quebec because he had no other options" "He still hates us because Southern Ontario still doesn't have a 2nd team" "He still hates us because all 30 teams are not located in Canada". As far as David Thomson being a "nightmare" for Bettman thats just crazy talk. David Thomson is a dream come true for Bettman. Bettman got what he always wanted in Winnipeg. He wanted 3 things: fan support, an owner and modern arena. In 97 2 of the 3 were missing. When all 3 were achieved the NHL came back as they said they would. So far Quebec is 2 for 3. Make it 3 for 3 and the league will likely return unless something off the wall happens in Glendale. You still didn't answer my last question. Do you think the NHL should go back to Quebec without an arena deal done? What paronoia. Some of you Canadians are deeply insecure. What are you going to say when the Nordiques return?They may return because it is what is best for hockey, not because it's something he wanted to do. If he was so passionate about hockey in Canada he would have put the same effort into saving the Canadian franchise back in the day as he is doing for Phoenix today. Gary's experiment failed and now the only way he can put a spin on it is buy coming back to places that should never have left. It is great P.R. one hell of a story, and he will milk it as much as he can. I guess the Phoenix home opener against Winnipeg is a coincidence. Why don't you ask Bettman to also just give you the Stanley Cup while your at it or eliminate the 23 American teams from the playoffs automatically before the season starts?Plain ignorant statement, "Could be a Gary sound byte"The relocation fee was to help cover the cost of the Coyotes. If he could have gotten that from a US city he would have done the same thing. The reason he asked for it from Winnipeg is because he knew it was a great market with fans that actually attend games and they were despirate for hockey and would pay it, not as a punishment for being a foreign country. The reason he wouldn't charge a US team that is because they couldn't pay it because they don't have that type of support.So if we did not pay this fee we would not have gotten a team, but in the US they would refuse to pay that fee, but would they still get the team Ya probably, sounds fair to me, and remember you said it! But i still expect Canadian nationalist to be complaining with stuff like "he only picked Quebec because he had no other options" "He still hates us because Southern Ontario still doesn't have a 2nd team" "He still hates us because all 30 teams are not located in Canada". When Canadians complain more then likely we have a legitimate reason, remember it's our game the more idiots like Gary mess with it the more it hurts the game. We are all about the game because in Canada it is our passion like baseball is to an American. The Nordiques likely will return if they don't screw up the arena thing. If its what he thinks is best for hockey and most importantly the bottom line he will do it.(Now granted he made a lot of mistakes in the south but this was out of stupidity, he really did believe this was best for the bottom line and game). Believe me he couldn't give a crap in what country the team was located in. If any pro sport could make money by putting a team in Tehran they'd do it. Any of the 4 big sports comissioners are bottom line cold hearted business men. Politics and nationalism don't have anything to do with it. As for not doing enough in the 90's for Winnipeg and Quebec what more could he do?? Both Winnipeg Arena and the Colisee were outdated. They had a grand total of 0 club seats and 0 luxuary boxes. No new arenas were forthcoming. It took Winnipeg 7 years to get an arena. The Jets were losing what? 20 Million a year wasn't it? Whatever it was times that by 7 years and you got 100 some million in loses? If you were an owner would you want to invest in something like that? Without arenas no one wanted either team or take on those type of loses including the league. At the time the Canadian dollar was in the toilet. Bettman flew several times to Winnipeg to try to work things out. He had to have police protection. Winnipeg and Quebec weren't the only cites to have lost there teams to outdated arenas/stadiums in sports. Since the modern stadium/arena boom that started in 1990 of the 4 major sports 14 teams have relocated. Of the 14 the only 2 that have failed and moved with modern arenas or stadiums were the Atlanta Thrashers and Vancouver Grizzlies of the NBA. The reason Bettman has put up such a fight for Phoenix is not because it is US or that he even wants to save face its because if Phoenix relocated Glendale would be the 1st city ever to have a modern arena/stadium in any pro sport built with millions of dollars without a tennant. Pro sports leagues like public dollars for arenas and stadiums and anti arena/stadium activists everywhere will use the example of Glendale to argue against public dollars for stadiums. In Sacramento they want a new arena for the NBA and activist there are already using the Glendale as an example of why not to built an arena. You know Gary did actually save most of the Canadian franchises. Remember the Canadian Assistance plan that helped the all the small market canadian teams?http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/1998/12/9/Leagues-Governing-Bodies/LEAVING-ARIZONA-NHL-ASSISTANCE-PLAN-FOR-CANADIAN-TEAMS-OKD.aspx Without this you'd have been down to 2 teams. He also found a buyer for the Senators in 2004 when they were bankrupt. Canadians tend to forget this. As far as being a mouthpiece i don't think i would qualify. I think he should still be fired for adding 30 teams. The relocation fee its not fair but its business. There is no way any of the "contenders" in the US could pay this because they are horrible markets. If Chipman wanted to play hardball he probably could have and the Jets still would have returned. But it wasn't worth the risk. Remember the same thing is going to happen in LA for football. They probably could play hardball too and not have to pay it but they won't want to risk it. Pure business in both cases. When Canadians complain its out of emotion, blind nationalism and ignorance a lot of the time although sometimes you are right. If for example Phoenix does have to move and Quebec comes up with an arena and Gary picks some other place like Houston, KC, or Mexico City then your right there is a plot and you should complain. But so far there is no indication whatsoever of him being anti-canada. There is nothing in the past that he could have done different in regards to Canadian teams. Bettman is just a bad commissioner who should be fired. Not an anti-canadian biggot. Hockey is not your game. Its your national past time. Hockey belongs to everybody who can support their team adequately. I agree that Bettman should go for his overexpansion. The league would be much better off with a couple less teams. At the same time Baseball is not our game. Its our national pastime. Baseball belongs to everybody who can support their team adequately(Toronto). The people in our country who complained when the Blue Jays won the 2 world series are a bunch of ****** Same for the idiots who still complain about the Toronto Raptors. However if a city in any sport can't support their team be it Canadian or American then that city shouldn't have a team. For example Canada deserved to lose the Montreal Expos, Vancouver Grizzlies and the United States deserved to lose the Thrashers and the same for the Coyotes and probably Florida too. And i wouldn't mind seeing the Buffalo Bills move full time to Toronto either.
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Post by Tim on Aug 24, 2011 6:31:39 GMT -6
What paronoia. Some of you Canadians are deeply insecure. What are you going to say when the Nordiques return?They may return because it is what is best for hockey, not because it's something he wanted to do. If he was so passionate about hockey in Canada he would have put the same effort into saving the Canadian franchise back in the day as he is doing for Phoenix today. Gary's experiment failed and now the only way he can put a spin on it is buy coming back to places that should never have left. It is great P.R. one hell of a story, and he will milk it as much as he can. I guess the Phoenix home opener against Winnipeg is a coincidence. Why don't you ask Bettman to also just give you the Stanley Cup while your at it or eliminate the 23 American teams from the playoffs automatically before the season starts?Plain ignorant statement, "Could be a Gary sound byte"The relocation fee was to help cover the cost of the Coyotes. If he could have gotten that from a US city he would have done the same thing. The reason he asked for it from Winnipeg is because he knew it was a great market with fans that actually attend games and they were despirate for hockey and would pay it, not as a punishment for being a foreign country. The reason he wouldn't charge a US team that is because they couldn't pay it because they don't have that type of support.So if we did not pay this fee we would not have gotten a team, but in the US they would refuse to pay that fee, but would they still get the team Ya probably, sounds fair to me, and remember you said it! But i still expect Canadian nationalist to be complaining with stuff like "he only picked Quebec because he had no other options" "He still hates us because Southern Ontario still doesn't have a 2nd team" "He still hates us because all 30 teams are not located in Canada". When Canadians complain more then likely we have a legitimate reason, remember it's our game the more idiots like Gary mess with it the more it hurts the game. We are all about the game because in Canada it is our passion like baseball is to an American. The Nordiques likely will return if they don't screw up the arena thing. If its what he thinks is best for hockey and most importantly the bottom line he will do it.(Now granted he made a lot of mistakes in the south but this was out of stupidity, he really did believe this was best for the bottom line and game). Believe me he couldn't give a crap in what country the team was located in. If any pro sport could make money by putting a team in Tehran they'd do it. Any of the 4 big sports comissioners are bottom line cold hearted business men. Politics and nationalism don't have anything to do with it. As for not doing enough in the 90's for Winnipeg and Quebec what more could he do?? Both Winnipeg Arena and the Colisee were outdated. They had a grand total of 0 club seats and 0 luxuary boxes. No new arenas were forthcoming. It took Winnipeg 7 years to get an arena. The Jets were losing what? 20 Million a year wasn't it? Whatever it was times that by 7 years and you got 100 some million in loses? If you were an owner would you want to invest in something like that? Without arenas no one wanted either team or take on those type of loses including the league. At the time the Canadian dollar was in the toilet. Bettman flew several times to Winnipeg to try to work things out. He had to have police protection. Winnipeg and Quebec weren't the only cites to have lost there teams to outdated arenas/stadiums in sports. Since the modern stadium/arena boom that started in 1990 of the 4 major sports 14 teams have relocated. Of the 14 the only 2 that have failed and moved with modern arenas or stadiums were the Atlanta Thrashers and Vancouver Grizzlies of the NBA. The reason Bettman has put up such a fight for Phoenix is not because it is US or that he even wants to save face its because if Phoenix relocated Glendale would be the 1st city ever to have a modern arena/stadium in any pro sport built with millions of dollars without a tennant. Pro sports leagues like public dollars for arenas and stadiums and anti arena/stadium activists everywhere will use the example of Glendale to argue against public dollars for stadiums. In Sacramento they want a new arena for the NBA and activist there are already using the Glendale as an example of why not to built an arena. You know Gary did actually save most of the Canadian franchises. Remember the Canadian Assistance plan that helped the all the small market canadian teams?http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/1998/12/9/Leagues-Governing-Bodies/LEAVING-ARIZONA-NHL-ASSISTANCE-PLAN-FOR-CANADIAN-TEAMS-OKD.aspx Without this you'd have been down to 2 teams. He also found a buyer for the Senators in 2004 when they were bankrupt. Canadians tend to forget this. As far as being a mouthpiece i don't think i would qualify. I think he should still be fired for adding 30 teams. The relocation fee its not fair but its business. There is no way any of the "contenders" in the US could pay this because they are horrible markets. If Chipman wanted to play hardball he probably could have and the Jets still would have returned. But it wasn't worth the risk. Remember the same thing is going to happen in LA for football. They probably could play hardball too and not have to pay it but they won't want to risk it. Pure business in both cases. When Canadians complain its out of emotion, blind nationalism and ignorance a lot of the time although sometimes you are right. If for example Phoenix does have to move and Quebec comes up with an arena and Gary picks some other place like Houston, KC, or Mexico City then your right there is a plot and you should complain. But so far there is no indication whatsoever of him being anti-canada. There is nothing in the past that he could have done different in regards to Canadian teams. Bettman is just a bad commissioner who should be fired. Not an anti-canadian biggot. Hockey is not your game. Its your national past time. Hockey belongs to everybody who can support their team adequately. I agree that Bettman should go for his overexpansion. The league would be much better off with a couple less teams. At the same time Baseball is not our game. Its our national pastime. Baseball belongs to everybody who can support their team adequately(Toronto). The people in our country who complained when the Blue Jays won the 2 world series are a bunch of ****** Same for the idiots who still complain about the Toronto Raptors. However if a city in any sport can't support their team be it Canadian or American then that city shouldn't have a team. For example Canada deserved to lose the Montreal Expos, Vancouver Grizzlies and the United States deserved to lose the Thrashers and the same for the Coyotes and probably Florida too. And i wouldn't mind seeing the Buffalo Bills move full time to Toronto either. This could go on for days but since you are not from Winnipeg and were not involved in what happened here 16 years ago you can only go by what you read and have herd. Now speaking with first hand insite on what happened in Winnipeg in the save the Jets campaign heres were you need to speak to the people involved before you comment. (1) No new arenas were forthcomingPardon my French but that is a BS, untrue statement. All the fund were in place to build an arena at this time, commitments from the federal, provincial and city government were in place. The company I work for now were already in place and on site to start the construction of the arena. This would have been at where are new baseball stadium is. We were just waiting for the word go, and our company invested many hours in this design spec project. We also ended up doing the new arena 7 years later. (2) If you want to know the truce about what happened with the attempted purchase of the Jets back then from our local group MEC/Spirit of Manitoba, just speak to some of the gentlemen involve and as one said personally to me, since I worked for him at the time, " We would meet demand after demand, then things would change and we would now have to meet new demand, it was clear this was not going to be aloud to happen" It's easy to stand 1000 miles away and coment on somthing that you really don't know about because you were not involed in it. You can only go by what you read and I am not really not sure where you get some of your information from, many thing you say are true, but to say Winnipeg never got screw over, you do not have the right to say that, because people who were involved in the process do no the truce and the so called polically correct answer to that old situation is not so accurate, but with us now owning a team again nobody will really comeout and speak publiclly on what really happend back in the day. Hell years ago I said to Mr Robinson that he should write a book about what really happened back then but that wlll never happen.
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Post by phillymike on Aug 24, 2011 8:23:09 GMT -6
IMO, back in the day Bettman was anti Winnipeg, not Canada. Winnipeg just happens to be in Canada. At the time, the grand illusion of a huge US television contract, plus the major metropolis of Pheonix, AZ wanting a franchise, in the leagues' eyes was just too promising. The same can be said of the Nordiques situation with Denver. How hard did he fight to save Hartford? Minnesota? Yes he did try to "Americanize" the game, but it wasn't because he was anti Canadian, it was because that is where the league thought that they would reap a massive bushel of cash. They did sign a 5 year $600 million television contract in 1998. (The largest the league has ever signed)If the Winnipeg Jets were situated in Idaho, with the same circumstances, they would have moved them. Let's not forget that Bettman is a figurehead for the league owners. I am not in anyway a Bettman fan, but the reality is he does what he's told.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 25, 2011 3:46:08 GMT -6
The Nordiques likely will return if they don't screw up the arena thing. If its what he thinks is best for hockey and most importantly the bottom line he will do it.(Now granted he made a lot of mistakes in the south but this was out of stupidity, he really did believe this was best for the bottom line and game). Believe me he couldn't give a crap in what country the team was located in. If any pro sport could make money by putting a team in Tehran they'd do it. Any of the 4 big sports comissioners are bottom line cold hearted business men. Politics and nationalism don't have anything to do with it. As for not doing enough in the 90's for Winnipeg and Quebec what more could he do?? Both Winnipeg Arena and the Colisee were outdated. They had a grand total of 0 club seats and 0 luxuary boxes. No new arenas were forthcoming. It took Winnipeg 7 years to get an arena. The Jets were losing what? 20 Million a year wasn't it? Whatever it was times that by 7 years and you got 100 some million in loses? If you were an owner would you want to invest in something like that? Without arenas no one wanted either team or take on those type of loses including the league. At the time the Canadian dollar was in the toilet. Bettman flew several times to Winnipeg to try to work things out. He had to have police protection. Winnipeg and Quebec weren't the only cites to have lost there teams to outdated arenas/stadiums in sports. Since the modern stadium/arena boom that started in 1990 of the 4 major sports 14 teams have relocated. Of the 14 the only 2 that have failed and moved with modern arenas or stadiums were the Atlanta Thrashers and Vancouver Grizzlies of the NBA. The reason Bettman has put up such a fight for Phoenix is not because it is US or that he even wants to save face its because if Phoenix relocated Glendale would be the 1st city ever to have a modern arena/stadium in any pro sport built with millions of dollars without a tennant. Pro sports leagues like public dollars for arenas and stadiums and anti arena/stadium activists everywhere will use the example of Glendale to argue against public dollars for stadiums. In Sacramento they want a new arena for the NBA and activist there are already using the Glendale as an example of why not to built an arena. You know Gary did actually save most of the Canadian franchises. Remember the Canadian Assistance plan that helped the all the small market canadian teams?http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/Daily/Issues/1998/12/9/Leagues-Governing-Bodies/LEAVING-ARIZONA-NHL-ASSISTANCE-PLAN-FOR-CANADIAN-TEAMS-OKD.aspx Without this you'd have been down to 2 teams. He also found a buyer for the Senators in 2004 when they were bankrupt. Canadians tend to forget this. As far as being a mouthpiece i don't think i would qualify. I think he should still be fired for adding 30 teams. The relocation fee its not fair but its business. There is no way any of the "contenders" in the US could pay this because they are horrible markets. If Chipman wanted to play hardball he probably could have and the Jets still would have returned. But it wasn't worth the risk. Remember the same thing is going to happen in LA for football. They probably could play hardball too and not have to pay it but they won't want to risk it. Pure business in both cases. When Canadians complain its out of emotion, blind nationalism and ignorance a lot of the time although sometimes you are right. If for example Phoenix does have to move and Quebec comes up with an arena and Gary picks some other place like Houston, KC, or Mexico City then your right there is a plot and you should complain. But so far there is no indication whatsoever of him being anti-canada. There is nothing in the past that he could have done different in regards to Canadian teams. Bettman is just a bad commissioner who should be fired. Not an anti-canadian biggot. Hockey is not your game. Its your national past time. Hockey belongs to everybody who can support their team adequately. I agree that Bettman should go for his overexpansion. The league would be much better off with a couple less teams. At the same time Baseball is not our game. Its our national pastime. Baseball belongs to everybody who can support their team adequately(Toronto). The people in our country who complained when the Blue Jays won the 2 world series are a bunch of ****** Same for the idiots who still complain about the Toronto Raptors. However if a city in any sport can't support their team be it Canadian or American then that city shouldn't have a team. For example Canada deserved to lose the Montreal Expos, Vancouver Grizzlies and the United States deserved to lose the Thrashers and the same for the Coyotes and probably Florida too. And i wouldn't mind seeing the Buffalo Bills move full time to Toronto either. This could go on for days but since you are not from Winnipeg and were not involved in what happened here 16 years ago you can only go by what you read and have herd. Now speaking with first hand insite on what happened in Winnipeg in the save the Jets campaign heres were you need to speak to the people involved before you comment. (1) No new arenas were forthcomingPardon my French but that is a BS, untrue statement. All the fund were in place to build an arena at this time, commitments from the federal, provincial and city government were in place. The company I work for now were already in place and on site to start the construction of the arena. This would have been at where are new baseball stadium is. We were just waiting for the word go, and our company invested many hours in this design spec project. We also ended up doing the new arena 7 years later. (2) If you want to know the truce about what happened with the attempted purchase of the Jets back then from our local group MEC/Spirit of Manitoba, just speak to some of the gentlemen involve and as one said personally to me, since I worked for him at the time, " We would meet demand after demand, then things would change and we would now have to meet new demand, it was clear this was not going to be aloud to happen" It's easy to stand 1000 miles away and coment on somthing that you really don't know about because you were not involed in it. You can only go by what you read and I am not really not sure where you get some of your information from, many thing you say are true, but to say Winnipeg never got screw over, you do not have the right to say that, because people who were involved in the process do no the truce and the so called polically correct answer to that old situation is not so accurate, but with us now owning a team again nobody will really comeout and speak publiclly on what really happend back in the day. Hell years ago I said to Mr Robinson that he should write a book about what really happened back then but that wlll never happen. All the funds were in place?? I never heard that. Was there anything in the papers or is this all inside info? Even on the old Jetsowner forum i haven't heard this. Not that i don't believe you. Like you say i am 1000 miles away. When you say the funds were in place what was the % of private vs public funding? What types of hoops did Bettman supposedly keep creating? I could see the league killing the arena if it was too much private cash going into the deal or the structure of it was too risky for the leagues liking. If Bettman did do this as you say i still don't think its means he's anti canada. Maybe he was anti Winnipeg since the population was so small. I could see him intentionally sabatoging a deal and not wanting it to work because at the time he thought the big population south was a gold mine and at the time even with a new arena which would have been a huge help Winnipeg had many other problems like a population 100,000 less that now, the dollar was in the toilet and there was no cap. So it would have been a tough sled even with a new arena at that time period. I could see any comissioner looking at that and think why bother its still too risky. Matter no what happened the important this is the Jets are back!!! You have a great owner and my guess is with a little luck you'll get a cup or cups within 5-10 years.
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Post by Tim on Aug 25, 2011 5:59:04 GMT -6
This could go on for days but since you are not from Winnipeg and were not involved in what happened here 16 years ago you can only go by what you read and have herd. Now speaking with first hand insite on what happened in Winnipeg in the save the Jets campaign heres were you need to speak to the people involved before you comment. (1) No new arenas were forthcomingPardon my French but that is a BS, untrue statement. All the fund were in place to build an arena at this time, commitments from the federal, provincial and city government were in place. The company I work for now were already in place and on site to start the construction of the arena. This would have been at where are new baseball stadium is. We were just waiting for the word go, and our company invested many hours in this design spec project. We also ended up doing the new arena 7 years later. (2) If you want to know the truce about what happened with the attempted purchase of the Jets back then from our local group MEC/Spirit of Manitoba, just speak to some of the gentlemen involve and as one said personally to me, since I worked for him at the time, " We would meet demand after demand, then things would change and we would now have to meet new demand, it was clear this was not going to be aloud to happen" It's easy to stand 1000 miles away and coment on somthing that you really don't know about because you were not involed in it. You can only go by what you read and I am not really not sure where you get some of your information from, many thing you say are true, but to say Winnipeg never got screw over, you do not have the right to say that, because people who were involved in the process do no the truce and the so called polically correct answer to that old situation is not so accurate, but with us now owning a team again nobody will really comeout and speak publiclly on what really happend back in the day. Hell years ago I said to Mr Robinson that he should write a book about what really happened back then but that wlll never happen. All the funds were in place?? I never heard that. Was there anything in the papers or is this all inside info? Even on the old Jetsowner forum i haven't heard this. Not that i don't believe you. Like you say i am 1000 miles away. When you say the funds were in place what was the % of private vs public funding? What types of hoops did Bettman supposedly keep creating? I could see the league killing the arena if it was too much private cash going into the deal or the structure of it was too risky for the leagues liking. If Bettman did do this as you say i still don't think its means he's anti canada. Maybe he was anti Winnipeg since the population was so small. I could see him intentionally sabatoging a deal and not wanting it to work because at the time he thought the big population south was a gold mine and at the time even with a new arena which would have been a huge help Winnipeg had many other problems like a population 100,000 less that now, the dollar was in the toilet and there was no cap. So it would have been a tough sled even with a new arena at that time period. I could see any comissioner looking at that and think why bother its still too risky. Matter no what happened the important this is the Jets are back!!! You have a great owner and my guess is with a little luck you'll get a cup or cups within 5-10 years. Take a look here is some information on some of the things that were going on. www.curtiswalker.com/jets/mec.aspxIf memory serves me it was a 110 million dollar arena, each level of government was putting in 30mil private would pick up the rest. Would have to do some real archive digging to get the exact figures. The one thing I can tell you demolition to that proposed site would not have started, with ground work, if the money commitments were not there. Company's don't just do things like that just because they hope an arena was going to be built. Work or demolition was in progress then it was haulted when the deal died. Was going to be a much nicer arena then we have today.
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Post by jetsorbust on Aug 25, 2011 7:04:14 GMT -6
mikecubs - I don't have a whole lot to add to this arguement except a quick reply to what you said here
"If Bettman did do this as you say i still don't think its means he's anti canada. Maybe he was anti Winnipeg since the population was so small. I could see him intentionally sabatoging a deal and not wanting it to work because at the time he thought the big population south was a gold mine and at the time"
I guess my point is, it doesn't matter if Bettman was against Winnipeg because of some anti-Canadian bias due to sheer irrational hatred for the country (which I agree is probably not the case) or just because he felt that more money could be made by moving teams from small markets in the north to big markets in the south.
The thing is, that's really enough for us to hate the guy. Even if it wasn't personal to him, it is personal to most Canadian (and Hartford) hockey fans. Not only did the guy think there was more money to be made down South (which we can now clearly see was wrong) but he was more than willing to throw us under the bus to get there.
His true underlying reasons for this aren't really all that important. The guy is a douche in my opinion, and a terrible business man as you have already agreed with on top of it!
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Post by Tim on Aug 25, 2011 8:52:04 GMT -6
mikecubs - I don't have a whole lot to add to this arguement except a quick reply to what you said here "If Bettman did do this as you say i still don't think its means he's anti Canada. Maybe he was anti Winnipeg since the population was so small. I could see him intentionally sabotaging a deal and not wanting it to work because at the time he thought the big population south was a gold mine and at the time" I guess my point is, it doesn't matter if Bettman was against Winnipeg because of some anti-Canadian bias due to sheer irrational hatred for the country (which I agree is probably not the case) or just because he felt that more money could be made by moving teams from small markets in the north to big markets in the south. The thing is, that's really enough for us to hate the guy. Even if it wasn't personal to him, it is personal to most Canadian (and Hartford) hockey fans. Not only did the guy think there was more money to be made down South (which we can now clearly see was wrong) but he was more than willing to throw us under the bus to get there. His true underlying reasons for this aren't really all that important. The guy is a douche in my opinion, and a terrible business man as you have already agreed with on top of it! Agreed 99.9%! But I would love someone here to find the video of Bettman talking about league revenues and when he said that the league made X amount of dollars in Canadian money and X amount in real money. Show me the love Gary, show me the love! Found it One more thought Canadian assistant fund that helped save the Oilers and the Flames was announced one week after we officially lost the Jets.
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 26, 2011 3:41:31 GMT -6
All the funds were in place?? I never heard that. Was there anything in the papers or is this all inside info? Even on the old Jetsowner forum i haven't heard this. Not that i don't believe you. Like you say i am 1000 miles away. When you say the funds were in place what was the % of private vs public funding? What types of hoops did Bettman supposedly keep creating? I could see the league killing the arena if it was too much private cash going into the deal or the structure of it was too risky for the leagues liking. If Bettman did do this as you say i still don't think its means he's anti canada. Maybe he was anti Winnipeg since the population was so small. I could see him intentionally sabatoging a deal and not wanting it to work because at the time he thought the big population south was a gold mine and at the time even with a new arena which would have been a huge help Winnipeg had many other problems like a population 100,000 less that now, the dollar was in the toilet and there was no cap. So it would have been a tough sled even with a new arena at that time period. I could see any comissioner looking at that and think why bother its still too risky. Matter no what happened the important this is the Jets are back!!! You have a great owner and my guess is with a little luck you'll get a cup or cups within 5-10 years. Take a look here is some information on some of the things that were going on. www.curtiswalker.com/jets/mec.aspxIf memory serves me it was a 110 million dollar arena, each level of government was putting in 30mil private would pick up the rest. Would have to do some real archive digging to get the exact figures. The one thing I can tell you demolition to that proposed site would not have started, with ground work, if the money commitments were not there. Company's don't just do things like that just because they hope an arena was going to be built. Work or demolition was in progress then it was haulted when the deal died. Was going to be a much nicer arena then we have today. Thanks for that link. Very interesting. I still have a lot of questions. I never knew you did actual demolition and clean up work. Thats just weird. Usually that never ever happens until the final arena deal is 100% approved. I never heard of any city doing that before until the whole thing was approved. That does show that someone was at least confident this was going to work. On your article i found this WHAT'S AHEAD ... The Manitoba Entertainment Complex is currently in the design and approvals stage and scheduled to begin construction in the summer of 1995. Construction is conditional upon obtaining all necessary funding commitments, the sale of the Winnipeg Jets to new private-sector owners, and obtaining all required government and regulatory approvalsWasn't the part that derailed it? No one wanted to own the team due other factors like no cap, small population and small growth at that time, the horrible dollar and horrible economy back then? Just curious what hoops were Bettman making the owners go through that you talked about?
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Post by mikecubs on Aug 26, 2011 4:09:30 GMT -6
mikecubs - I don't have a whole lot to add to this arguement except a quick reply to what you said here "If Bettman did do this as you say i still don't think its means he's anti canada. Maybe he was anti Winnipeg since the population was so small. I could see him intentionally sabatoging a deal and not wanting it to work because at the time he thought the big population south was a gold mine and at the time" I guess my point is, it doesn't matter if Bettman was against Winnipeg because of some anti-Canadian bias due to sheer irrational hatred for the country (which I agree is probably not the case) or just because he felt that more money could be made by moving teams from small markets in the north to big markets in the south. The thing is, that's really enough for us to hate the guy. Even if it wasn't personal to him, it is personal to most Canadian (and Hartford) hockey fans. Not only did the guy think there was more money to be made down South (which we can now clearly see was wrong) but he was more than willing to throw us under the bus to get there. His true underlying reasons for this aren't really all that important. The guy is a douche in my opinion, and a terrible business man as you have already agreed with on top of it! I agree with this 100% I don't blame you for hating him. I don't think it should make a difference. I hate him too. Everyone should hate him. My whole point was that it wasn't an anti canada bias. He was just a plain idiot nothing more, nothing less. If i saw him at a game i'd boo the hell out of him too. He made a joke out of the game. That video that Tim had shows what a loser he is. Usually a sports comissioner talks about rule changes, how great his game is, how nice his new facilities are etc. What did Bettman have to talk about the vast majority of the interview? He had awnser which team is moving, which team may go bankrupt, which team has an owner that wants to get the hell out. That is a total black eye for the game and makes the NHL seam like a minor league sport. However my original point to all of this was if Phoenix becomes available i don't think he will pass up Quebec City with a new arena out of some bias. While Bettman is dumb i can't imagine him being that dumb especially considering what happen in Winnipeg with tickets selling out in minutes. As for being thrown under the bus i can definately see how people could think that. The only team in town left. That is beyond painful. Those videos of Jets fans at the end trying to raise money are painfully sad and so was the "funeral" at Winnipeg Arena for the team. But Seattle fans say the same thing about how David Stern hated them which isn't true. The problem was an outdated arena nothing personal. And that was my point about Bettman. I think in the long run although he didn't mean to Bettman did Winnipeg a favor. Look at the factors now compare to then. There was no cap then, there is now. The economy of Manitoba was in ruin at the time now its booming. The dollars was in the toilet now its doing great, the population in the mid 90's was a 100,000 lower than now and it was stagnant, now Winnipeg is growing 10,000 a year and i bet before you know it Winnipeg will be over 1 million people. And don't forget in the end you couldn't have possibly wound up with better owners. So all in all it did work out.
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