Rogers Centre to get grass field Argos to leave after 2017

[mikecubs]

Blue Jays confirm Rogers Centre to get grass field, Toronto Argos must find new home, after 2017 season

Argos sign deal Friday to stay at Rogers Centre until end of 2017 CFL season, with an option for CFL club to leave earlier.


The Toronto Argos have signed a deal to stay at Rogers Centre until the end of 2017 season but must leave after that, clearing the way for the Blue Jays to get a grass field.


“The parties involved have agreed that no licence renewal past that date is contemplated,” the CFL club said in a statement released Friday.


Blue Jays and Rogers Centre president and CEO Paul Beeston said in a statement he was pleased with the deal.


“We are pleased to have concluded what has been a very amicable negotiation with the Argonauts resulting in an agreement that is fair for both the Blue Jays and the Argonauts,” Beeston said. “The length of the deal allows the Argonauts a reasonable period of time to pursue other stadium options while allowing us sufficient time to plan the logistics of various stadium improvements including the installation of a grass playing surface for baseball at Rogers Centre.”


The Argos will now have four years to find a new home.


“The Argos look forward to the process of developing and implementing a plan for a new home for the team while we continue to be a cornerstone tenant of the stadium that has been our home since its opening in 1989,” said Argos CEO Chris Rudge.


The Argos contemplated moving to Varsity Stadium at the University of Toronto in the early 2000s, but the project didn’t pan out. Varsity has since been demolished.


MLSE CEO Tim Leiweke discussed the possibility of the Argos moving into BMO field last month on a conference call but TFC fans were upset by the possibility.


CFL commissioner Mark Cohon, noting a number of new CFL stadiums under construction, told the Star earlier this month the league is building for the future and a long-term, secure plan for the Argos must be part of the plan.


“In the short term, the Argos are working with Rogers Centre on a lease for the next several years,” said Cohon. “As part of this stadium renaissance, we also have to consider the long-term stadium plan for the Argos.”


Rudge earlier said the Argos only just got serious about searching for a new home within the last six months.


“It’s in our interest to make things happen as soon as possible,” said Rudge.

www.thestar.com/sports/argos/2013/09/20/blue_jays_confirm_rogers_centre_to_get_grass_field_after_toronto_argos_leave_by_2017.html

[Deleted]

A nice outdoor 25-30,000-seat stadium would be great. The "Skydome" is so 1980s.

[mikecubs]

^^^^ Agreed. Except your capacity is a little too small. League rules are you have to have 34,000 bear minimum. Oakland A's owner Lew Wolf wanted to build a 32,000 seat stadium in San Jose(he still hasn't gotten MLB's and the Giants ok) Selig told him if he even got the ok he had to have at least 34,000 seats. 35,000-40,000 would be perfect for Toronto. Unfortunately last week(can't find article, don't have the time) a spokesman for Rogers said they aren't going to try for a new stadium. There were rumors during the spring the Jays are going to do a $250M renovation to Rogers Centre. That would be a total waste. If your going to spend that much build a retro park. Sell the land the dome sits on to make up for the extra $250 million a new stadium would cost. I hope the Jays only put in grass and maybe reconfigure the outfield walls and don't do anything major. I hope they keep their long term options open.

St. Louis in the 1990's renovated their ugly cookie cutter stadium putting in grass and a hand operated score board. It cost like only 20 some million and was a big improvement though the park still sucked. 10ish years later they build a new retro park with a St. Louis Arch view.

[Deleted]

Well, I meant solely for the CFL - not the MLB. Although, most of the time I'm sure 25,000 would be quite enough for a Jays game these days...

[wolf357]

No CFL in the Skydome...great! that means that there will not be a automatic Grey Cup in the center of the Universe every 3-4 years in Toronto..

The Skydome is just to freaking big for the CFL. The Big O didnt work in Montreal either.

[jetsv2]

Sept 25, 2013 19:38:08 GMT -6 wolf357 said:

No CFL in the Skydome...great! that means that there will not be a automatic Grey Cup in the center of the Universe every 3-4 years in Toronto..

The Skydome is just to freaking big for the CFL. The Big O didnt work in Montreal either.

Where they play is not the reason the Argos are struggling to draw fans. Playing in a oversized stadium with cheap tickets doesn't cause your team to draw under 15k fans for many games.

[wolf357]

I agree that the Toronto sports fans are not exactly die hards. It seems they only support the Leafs and for some reason Soccer (Toronto FC). OHL hockey has never worked there, and the Jays get support when they are doing well on the field.
However I disagree that the stadium has nothing to do with their support. The Alouets are a good example of what can happen when a CFL teams moves out of a sparse Mega dome like the Big O to something more cozy like Molson..
This is a older article but makes the point.
reporter-archive.mcgill.ca/Rep/r3101/alouette.html

[maniaaron]

^ nice link, very interesting that when they started playing at McGill it had 17,000 seats, in 1998, a true tuning point in CFL history, location and atmosphere of a stadium > size

[mikecubs]

Sept 26, 2013 8:22:11 GMT -6 wolf357 said:

I agree that the Toronto sports fans are not exactly die hards. It seems they only support the Leafs and for some reason Soccer (Toronto FC). OHL hockey has never worked there, and the Jays get support when they are doing well on the field.
However I disagree that the stadium has nothing to do with their support. The Alouets are a good example of what can happen when a CFL teams moves out of a sparse Mega dome like the Big O to something more cozy like Molson..
This is a older article but makes the point.
reporter-archive.mcgill.ca/Rep/r3101/alouette.html

Hard to say the Raptors don't get support when most seasons they average above league average attendance and pay into revenue sharing for an unspeakable awful product for most of their history. The Jays do fine considering circumstances. Every team in MLB has a ceiling, average and floor depending on how they are doing. When you consider the Jays haven't made the playoffs since 1993 and play in a boring circular stadium they do fine. What if they made the playoffs once in a while in a modern new retro park? They'd be drawing well over 30,000.

Toronto is an embarrassment for football however. I don't follow CFL but I know the Argos draw awful. The Bills in Toronto series also draws awful and that's with a bunch of given away tickets.

[jetsfan85]

Part of Toronto's problem is it has too much. Great sports city but they are spoiled so to speak. They have CFL MLB NBA NLL MLS AHL NHL. CFL ranks about. 5th IMO. They also don't adverise CFL as much as some of their other teams. They average 19-20k on any game in a massive 50k seat stadium. That offers zero atmosphere for a football game. They need a new CFL stadium no more than 23K with expandability options in case the league and team are successful in securing new long term argo fans that may boost their average att a few thousand. Relying on existing stadiums in the city won't do anything to make the team more popular.

[mikecubs]

Jays president Beeston insists ‘baseball should be played on grass’: Griffin

But Beeston concedes natural grass won’t work at Rogers Centre while the CFL’s Argonauts remain tenants.


Rummaging through a pile of loose papers in his Rogers Centre office, Blue Jays president Paul Beeston finally finds what he’s looking for. It’s a single sheet that illustrates the configuration problem precluding installation of a grass surface inside the current stadium. The issue is clearly the CFL.


The key page in the report Beeston recently received from his engineers contains an artist’s rendering, with the 110-yard CFL field superimposed over the baseball configuration. The football grid is dropped, in scale, onto the diamond, laid out from home plate towards the hotel in centre field.


The issue is the home plate seating carves gracefully through significant corners of the south end zone. Clearly baseball stands will always need relocation in order to play CFL games. Clearly, relocation is not possible with grass.


“There’s two (MLB) teams that have turf, us and Tampa Bay,” Beeston said. “Tampa Bay’s turf is even better than our turf, because it’s down permanently. Ours goes up and down depending on whether we have a rock show, the Pan Am Games coming here (in 2015).


“But the way that the (Rogers Centre) stadium works, you cannot put the (grass) in and put a football field on it. That is actually the problem. That’s the problem. It doesn’t work. The seats need to move. That’s how it was designed.”


But Beeston will never just toss Toronto’s CFL team onto the street without them already having a new home. After all, he is a member of the Order of Canada and a patriot, and understands the special symbolism of the Canadian brand of football within the nation’s sporting psyche.


“The bottom line of it is, I believe in the CFL,” the 68-year-old native of Welland, Ont. insisted. “I think the CFL is a good product. It’s an exciting product. I actually think it’s great for the country. I think it’s a unifying fact for the country. It’s a different brand of football and to be very honest with you, I think that we have a community responsibility. On the other hand, it’s not ideal for the Argos, because we can’t fill the place. It’s probably too big.


“We’ve made it quite clear to the Argos over the last few years, but specifically at the start of last season. They’ve got four years to go (through 2017). So, last year was the first year of a five-year lease. We’ve said, ‘Lookit, we have to put grass in here.’


“The game of baseball is played on grass. The game of football, for all practical purposes, is played on turf now. Because, there are (14 NFL and eight CFL teams) that have turf now. In baseball, we’re going away from the turf and onto the grass.”


A natural grass field would, aesthetically, add tremendously to the enjoyment of the game at the SkyDome/Rogers Centre, the Jays’ home since 1989. Infield play would be truer and outfield fences might even be lowered. Chase Field in Arizona, home of the Diamondbacks, is a working example of a retractable roof stadium that is able to sustain a natural grass field. It can be done.


But more than just the factor of fan enjoyment, there is the issue of player injuries and attracting free agents. Current Jays shortstop Jose Reyes can’t wait for the change to be made, having ignored any thought of coming to the Jays as a free agent several years ago. There are other free agents that have avoided Toronto, such as outfielder Carlos Beltran, who was coveted by the Jays but chose St. Louis.


“I think you could play on concrete if you’re winning,” Beeston countered. “That will draw the free agents. It’s a very convenient argument that because we don’t have grass, players won’t come here. Maybe that happens at the end of a person’s career, because certain players do want out of the turf. But, if we were winning, a guy’s coming to the end of his career and says, ‘Hey man, this team has got a chance to win the World Series.’ I’m telling you, play it on concrete.”


Turf, foreign country, taxes, customs — the Jays have been working at a disadvantage forever. Why not remove one of them?


With all the big money being handed out to free agents — especially with the aging superstar-type to which Beeston is referring — any nagging injury brought on by playing on unnatural turf is actually taking money out of the franchise’s coffers. Installing grass would pay for itself in terms of reducing man days lost to injury. There is no downside risk.


“Beltran, if he hadn’t already won a World Series, if he hadn’t done the things that he’d done, he may say, ‘Man, this is my chance to win,’” Beeston argued. “It’s like Paul Molitor, he didn’t really care. Dave Winfield didn’t care. That was old turf, too.”


However, those two World Series-winning Jays teams also featured baseball’s highest payroll at the time. And Beeston does acknowledge that artificial turf poses injury concerns.


“It takes its toll. It’s for real,” he said. “There is that issue. But grass is baseball? Whether we talked ourselves into it because we went the other way (back then), there had to be 15 teams with turf in the late ’80, early ’90s. Everyone was putting in turf.


“The bottom line of it is that at the very end of the day, everyone recognizes that baseball should be played on grass.”


But before grass for the Jays can happen, the question is, how do you solve a problem like the Argos?

www.thestar.com/sports/bluejays/2014/02/01/jays_president_beeston_insists_baseball_should_be_played_on_grass_griffin.html

[mikecubs]

Bad news if true, the installation of grass may cost around $250M.

www.bluebirdbanter.com/2014/2/2/5369566/is-the-rogers-centre-getting-new-turf-for-the-2014-blue-jays-season

If true this is a terrible mistake for the Blue Jays. They may as well build a privately financed retro park. If the Jays would have been smart enough not to fool around with the NFL(Bills in Toronto Series) they could have also put that money towards a new park which would have been well over $100M. The land Rogers Centre sits on could have been sold or Rogers could have build development on it to pay for the rest of a new park. Jays are the worst organization in MLB. I'd rather have Jeff Loria as an owner and David Sampson as team president than have Rogers as owner and Paul Beeston as president. As least Loria got a nice ballpark built(and he did win a World Series) so as soon as he sells the team the Marlins should be ok. Rogers/Beeston are going to lock the Jays long term into the last bad/circular/cookie cutter ballpark long term.(I assume Oakland and Tampa will get new parks eventually, at least they are trying for them).

Rogers/Beesten are small time thinkers who settle for mediocrity both on the field, in the farm system and for a stadium. Paul Beesten is as big a problem as Rogers if not bigger. The guy is totally stuck in the 1980's and it's doubtful he will ever leave the 1980's. The guy reeks of mediocrity which is why the Jays have the 2nd longest playoff drought in MLB and why they produce small market revenues despite playing in the 4th biggest market in MLB. Other than Oakland(who should eventually get a new park) every big market team in MLB pulls it's weight other than the Jays. Revenue sharing is being phased out for the top 15 markets in MLB so soon the Jays will have to go without revenue sharing. I hate to say it but it wouldn't surprise me if the Jays went on a 20-25 year death spiral(ala the Expos from 84 on) and moved to a city like Charlotte or San Antonio once they grow more and Canada be left without baseball. Toronto fans should rise up and demand more. Start a web site, call in shows, etc... do whatever it takes to not go though with the $250M renovation and get rid of Beeston. There's no reason Toronto shouldn't have a new park and produce big market revenues like every other big market.

[Hannu Smail]

Feb 4, 2014 0:08:37 GMT -6 mikecubs said:

Bad news if true, the installation of grass may cost around $250M.

www.bluebirdbanter.com/2014/2/2/5369566/is-the-rogers-centre-getting-new-turf-for-the-2014-blue-jays-season

If true this is a terrible mistake for the Blue Jays. They may as well build a privately financed retro park. If the Jays would have been smart enough not to fool around with the NFL(Bills in Toronto Series) they could have also put that money towards a new park which would have been well over $100M. The land Rogers Centre sits on could have been sold or Rogers could have build development on it to pay for the rest of a new park. Jays are the worst organization in MLB. I'd rather have Jeff Loria as an owner and David Sampson as team president than have Rogers as owner and Paul Beeston as president. As least Loria got a nice ballpark built(and he did win a World Series) so as soon as he sells the team the Marlins should be ok. Rogers/Beeston are going to lock the Jays long term into the last bad/circular/cookie cutter ballpark long term.(I assume Oakland and Tampa will get new parks eventually, at least they are trying for them).

Rogers/Beesten are small time thinkers who settle for mediocrity both on the field, in the farm system and for a stadium. Paul Beesten is as big a problem as Rogers if not bigger. The guy is totally stuck in the 1980's and it's doubtful he will ever leave the 1980's. The guy reeks of mediocrity which is why the Jays have the 2nd longest playoff drought in MLB and why they produce small market revenues despite playing in the 4th biggest market in MLB. Other than Oakland(who should eventually get a new park) every big market team in MLB pulls it's weight other than the Jays. Revenue sharing is being phased out for the top 15 markets in MLB so soon the Jays will have to go without revenue sharing. I hate to say it but it wouldn't surprise me if the Jays went on a 20-25 year death spiral(ala the Expos from 84 on) and moved to a city like Charlotte or San Antonio once they grow more and Canada be left without baseball. Toronto fans should rise up and demand more. Start a web site, call in shows, etc... do whatever it takes to not go though with the $250M renovation and get rid of Beeston. There's no reason Toronto shouldn't have a new park and produce big market revenues like every other big market.

I'm sorry, but there is just so much wrong with this post.

Do the Jays need a new ballpark, absolutely. Should it be done the way Loria did it, absolutely not. He held the city hostage and basically defrauded Miami into building that abomination of a park which regularly attracts < 20,000 fans (being generous there too). To say you'd want him as an owner is riduculous. Everyone here kills the Coyotes for their situation in Glendale - how is Loria any better? Answer: he's not, he's a borderline criminal, and it's insane to say he's anywhere near a "good" owner.

As far as baseball ops, Rogers pumped big dollars into the payroll last season, and it didn't work. Fans are clamoring for more big ticket moves now, and while I may even be one of them, you can also make the case that's throwing good money after bad.

And your comment about a mediocre farm system is also false, as the Jays were ranked near the top of the league before last season, when they traded away many of the system's crown jewels... to take on big payroll and established stars.

The Jays are the worst organization in MLB?  The team is destined to move?  Check the trends in attendance and TV numbers.  Both on the rise in recent years. Tampa and Oakland will move long before Toronto ever does. MLB won't let it happen either. It's more likely Montreal regains a team than Toronto loses one.

So do the Blue Jays need a new park?  Absolutely they do.  The Skydome is a dated relic.  But don't try and make that point with some insulting falsehoods.

[mikecubs]

I didn't say they should finance the park the way they did it in Miami and I DID NOT say I'd like Loria as an owner of my team. I'd just plug my nose and pick him over Rogers. Reread my post and don't make up stuff I didn't say. The park in my plan would have been entirely PRIVATELY financed as I laid out in my post. Inspite of the way Loria did it at least he got a new park(if they removed that flamingo thing the park would be ok but not great) and as soon as they get a new owner the Marlins will start with a 100% blank slate and won't have a handicap holding them back unlike Toronto if they actually go through with this.

The major differences between Miami for MLB and Phoenix for NHL is if Miami had an owner other than Loria they could at least support MLB at a weak level(kind of like Pittsburgh or KC). Phoenix can't support NHL at all without help from Sammy Chivara.

The Jays currently have the 20th ranked system according to Keith Law. In the Marlins trade if I recall correctly they only traded 1 stud prospect, that's why Loria got the beating he did. It was a salary dump. Look at the past 20 years. Other than Roy Halladay how many stud prospects have the Jays developed? Not very many. Look how Tampa can win with a lot less than the Jays.

Other than last year the attendance from 99 on is mediocre. The Jays finished below league average attendance in every single season because the organization doesn't win and the dome sucks. From 99 on the Jays have averaged only 24,872. That's enough to survive off of but that's at a small market level. In that time period that is worst than everyone except Tampa, Oakland, Kansas City, Miami and Pittsburgh. Tampa, Oakland, have horrible parks, Miami did and they still have Jeff. Compare the Jays popularity pre 99 to now. What if it keeps slipping? Is it really that unrealistic for fans to completely get fed up by
1. More losing/medocrity which is sure to come
2. Having the last bad park with no hope of a replacement in site. No other team in sports is locking themselves into a bad outdated park like the Jays. Not a one. The Jays will be the only organization in any of the big 4 sports to be playing in a relic in 5-10 years. What if fans say the team never wins and the stadium sucks, I wish we had a nice or decent park like every other team has. I give up and attendance falls to Expos levels. Remember the Expos had 3 phases of attendance.

79-83 awesome
84-94 barely survivable
95 on dying/horrible

What if the Jays are currently in the Expos 84-94 period and the worst is still to come?
If those low 20,000's start becoming teens perpetually the Jays could end up in trouble. Especially since there is no safety net. Revenue sharing is gone for the Jays. The Pirates, Royals, Marlins have a HUGE safety net in place.

I do agree with you MLB would do everything in their power to save the Jays. MLB is NOT going to give up the 4th biggest market without a fight. My worry was attendance keeps dropping(certain possible with bad owner/park), 20 years pass and the price of a new park is so high they can't privately finance it anymore and MLB asked for public money(ala Montreal) the city/providence says no, things spiral out of control(increased fire sales as punishment for not giving the team public $$$) the team finally moves.

Last but not least the Jays are 100% clearly the worst organization in MLB. The fact is they have the 2nd longest playoff drought(only Kansas City is longer) despite playing in the 4th biggest market in a sport without a salary cap. That's pathetic. It's also true they are the only big market team that produces small market revenue other than Oakland. Oakland is at least TRYING to fix things unlike the Jays who are happy to be a small market team.

Fact is long term bad things happen to teams with bad stadiums/ballparks. Think Toronto is too big to ever lose the team? Well LA doesn't have NFL, Seattle doesn't have NBA.

The fact is the Jays organization is stale/rotten top to bottom. The dome, Beeston and Rogers need to go. There is no reason Toronto shouldn't be a big revenue team with a retro park that occasionally wins.

[mikecubs]

Here is the entire attendance since 89 on for the Jays at the dome.

1989 54 2,628,122 48,669
1990 81 3,884,384 47,955
1991 81 4,001,526 49,402
1992 81 4,028,318 49,732
1993 81 4,057,747 50,096
1994 59 2,907,949 49,287
1995 72 2,826,445 39,256
1996 81 2,559,910 31,604
1997 81 2,589,317 31,967
1998 81 2,454,303 30,300

The fall begins due to losing and fans realizing the dome experience sucks compare to a retro park.

1999 81 2,163,486 26,710
2000 81 1,819,919 22,468
2001 80 1,895,236 23,690
2002 81 1,638,170 20,224
2003 81 1,799,818 22,220
2004 81 1,900,041 23,457
2005 81 2,014,995 24,876
2006 81 2,302,182 28,422
2007 81 2,360,648 29,144
2008 81 2,399,786 29,627
2009 81 1,876,129 23,162
2010 78 1,495,482 19,173
2011 81 1,818,103 22,446
2012 81 2,099,663 25,922
2013 81 2,536,562 31,316

Other than last years excitement that didn't pan out the Jays attendance is not on the rise. I expect the Jays to fall back to the mid to low 20,000s soon. Tampa is loaded, New York will be ok with their spending spree and Boston is Boston. Maybe if the Jays get lucky they can catch the Orioles if the Jays are willing to overpay for Ubaldo Jimenez or Ervin Santana and they stay healthy.