The death of the NHL in Seattle

[mikecubs]

Jul 18, 2015 15:19:44 GMT -6 @hannujarvenpaa said:

Jul 18, 2015 14:45:42 GMT -6 mikecubs said:

I was under the impression the arena was in Tukwila. That's not accurate. It's more like southern Tukwila even further from Seattle. I really wonder if the NBA could even draw at such a remote site. They just may as well put the arena on top of mount rainier.

I agree that arenas are better off being built in their respective cities core areas, but if you look at a Google map of the Sea-Tac area, it's not that bad. It reminds me of the Bay Area or Dallas-Fort Worth. The area is built up between Seattle and Tacoma, and that is a busy strip. It's not like Ottawa, Phoenix or Florida, where they built the arenas in the furthest possible place away from the centre of the Metro area.

Better than Ottawa, Florida, Glendale don't say much. Especially when unlike Glendale, Sunrise you are taking on $500M of debt. Bottom line is this is going to be one of the worst located facilities in either the NBA/NHL or MLB. Go through where each of the facilities in the 3 full time sports are located compare to the city core. Almost all of them are smack downtown.

Dallas the city itself has almost 1.3M people. San Jose has over 1M in the outright city and their arena is smack middle in downtown with excellent public transport. This place has 19,000 some with so so public transport. Dallas/San Jose are downtown so you get walkups. How many walkups/casual fans is this place going to get? Especially with a losing expansion team?

[mikecubs]

Using distance to from.net www.distancefromto.net/

here is a look at how far the facilities of the 3 major sports that play more than once a week are located from downtown. These may be off a few miles one way or the other because I'm not sure if this site uses the downtown exactly or the city center. For example on the site it says it's 17.4 from downtown Phoenix to Gila River arena, wiki says it's 12.5. Take these with a bit of a grain of salt this is not perfect by any means.

NHL

Team-Arena-miles

St. Louis Blues Scottrade Center(1994) 0.23
Nashville Predators Bridgestone Arena(1996)* 0.39
Edmonton Oilers Rogers Place(2016) 0.4
San Jose Sharks SAP Center at San Jose(1993) 0.67
Pittsburgh Penguins Consol Energy Center(2010) 0.7
Toronto Maple Leafs Air Canada Centre(1999) 0.71
Boston Bruins TD Garden(1995) 0.77
Montreal Canadiens Bell Centre(1996)* 0.8
Tampa Bay Lightning Amalie Arena(1996) 0.87
Columbus Blue Jackets Nationwide Arena(2000) 0.93
Buffalo Sabres First Niagara Center(1996) 1
Winnipeg Jets MTS Centre(2004)* 1.01
Detroit Red Wings New Detroit Arena(2017) 1.03
Vancouver Canucks Rogers Arena(1995) 1.17
Dallas Stars American Airlines Center(2001) 1.21
Washington Capitals Verizon Center(1997)* 1.32
Calgary Flames Scotiabank Saddledome(1983) 1.51
Los Angeles Kings Staples Center(1999) 1.88
Colorado Avalanche Pepsi Center(1999) 2.08
Minnesota Wild Xcel Energy Center(2000) 2.75 from downtown st. paul, 9.26 to minneapolis
Chicago Blackhawks United Center(1994) 3.07
New York Rangers Madison Square Garden(1968) 3.08
New York Islanders Barclays Center(2012) 3.25
Anaheim Ducks Honda Center(1993) 4.74 (from Anaheim not LA)
Philadelphia Flyers Wells Fargo Center(1996) 6.14
Carolina Hurricanes PNC Arena(1999) 6.53
New Jersey Devils Prudential Center(2007) 10.24 (there are great public transport options for this so the distance is misleading)
Tukwila 11.94
Ottawa Senators Canadian Tire Centre(1996)* 15.81 (want new arena downtown)
Arizona Coyotes Gila River Arena(2003)* 17.4(If i'm wrong and they lose the lawsuit or the city doesn't cave they are finished)
Florida Panthers BB&T Center(1998) 36.17 (want a bailout, if they ever separate the concerts from hockey good bye panthers)

NBA

Phoenix Suns Talking Stick Resort Arena(1992) 0.24
Oklahoma City Thunder Chesapeake Energy Arena(2002) 0.33
Indiana Pacers Bankers Life Fieldhouse(1999) 0.36
Sacramento Kings Golden 1 Center(2016) 0.49
Charlotte Hornets Time Warner Cable Arena(2005) 0.6
Cleveland Cavaliers Quicken Loans Arena(1994) 0.62
Orlando Magic Amway Center(2010) 0.67
Toronto Raptors Air Canada Centre(1999)* 0.71
Boston Celtics TD Garden(1995) 0.77
Memphis Grizzlies FedExForum(2004) 0.92
Milwaukee Bucks BMO Harris Bradley Center(1988) 1.06 (new arena will be in the same area)
Dallas Mavericks American Airlines Center(2001) 1.21
Portland Trail Blazers Moda Center(1995) 1.23
Houston Rockets Toyota Center(2003) 1.25
Utah Jazz EnergySolutions Arena(1991) 1.26
Atlanta Hawks Philips Arena(1999) 1.28
Washington Wizards Verizon Center(1997)* 1.32
Minnesota Timberwolves The Target Center(1990) 1.37
New Orleans Pelicans Smoothie King Center(1999) 1.5
Miami Heat American Airlines Arena(1999)* 1.54
Los Angeles Lakers/ Staples Center(1999) 1.88
Los Angeles Clippers 1.88
Denver Nuggets Pepsi Center(1999) 2.08
Chicago Bulls United Center(1994) 3.07
New York Knicks Madison Square Garden(1968) 3.08
Brooklyn Nets Barclays Center(2012) 3.25
San Antonio Spurs AT&T Center(2002) 4.01
Philadelphia 76ers Wells Fargo Center(1996) 6.14
Golden State Warriors Oracle Arena(1966)6.37 from Oakland, 17.35 miles to San Francisco (If they can beat back NIMBYS and get their privately financed arena in San Francisco they will be 2.78 miles from downtown)
Tukwila 11.94
Detroit Pistons The Palace of Auburn Hills(1988) 32.55 (owner is talking to the Illitches about move downtown)

MLB

Arizona Diamondbacks Chase Field(1998) 0.52
St. Louis Cardinals Busch Stadium(2006) 0.56
Cincinnati Reds Great American Ballpark(2003) 0.64
Minnesota Twins Target Field(2010) 0.7
Detroit Tigers Comerica Park(2000) 0.76
Baltimore Orioles Camden Yards(1992) 0.84
Pittsburgh Pirates PNC Park(2001) 0.9
San Diego Padres Petco Park(2004) 0.9
Cleveland Indians Progressive Field(1994) 0.93
Houston Astros Minute Maid Park(2000) 1.12
Seattle Mariners Safeco Field(1999)* 1.2
Toronto Blue Jays Rogers Centre(1989)* 1.52
Los Angeles Dodgers Dodger Stadium(1962) 1.86
Colorado Rockies Coors Field(1995) 2.05
San Francisco Giants AT&T Park(2000) 2.21
Boston Red Sox Fenway Park(1912) 2.47
Miami Marlins Marlins Park(2012) 3.09
Washington Nationals Nationals Park(2008) 3.52
Los Angeles Angels Angels Stadium(1966) 4.02
Milwaukee Brewers Miller Park(2001) 4.16
Chicago White Sox US Cellular Field(1991) 4.72
Oakland A's O.co Coliseum(1966)* 6.66
Chicago Cubs Wrigley Field(1914)* 6.82
Philadelphia Phillies Citizens Bank Park(2004) 6.82
Kansas City Royals Kauffman Stadium(1973) 7.59
New York Yankees Yankee Stadium(2009) 11.65
New York Mets Citi Field(2009) 13.24
Atlanta Braves SunTrust Park(2017) 13.82 (all the white fans live in the North suburbs so this may work)
Texas Rangers Globe Life Park in Arlington(1994) 17.91 from dallas 15.4 miles from Fort Worth
Tampa Bay Rays Tropicana Field(1990) Renovated (1998)* 22.58 (want replacement because of location)

New York is so built up that the miles on this one are misleading. There's plenty of people in the Bronx, Queens and there are great public transport options for both stadiums.

Here is the NFL for the heck of it


Cleveland Browns FirstEnergy Stadium(1999) 0.55
Detroit Lions Ford Field(2002) 0.67
Carolina Panthers Bank of America Stadium(1996) 0.75
Minnesota Vikings U.S. Bank Stadium(2016) 0.75
Indianapolis Colts Lucas Oil Stadium(2008) 0.81
Cincinnati Bengals Paul Brown Stadium(2000) 0.85
New Orleans Saints Mercedes-Benz Superdome(1975) 0.86
Tennessee Titans Nissan Stadium(1999) 0.88
Atlanta Falcons New Atlanta Falcons Stadium(2017) 1.04
Seattle Seahawks CenturyLink Field(2002) 1.07
St. Louis Rams Edward Jones Dome(1995)* 1.17
Jacksonville Jaguars EverBank Field(1946) 1.29
Pittsburgh Steelers Heinz Field(2001) 1.33
Baltimore Ravens M&T Bank Stadium(1998) 1.47
Chicago Bears Soldier Field(1924) 2.21
Denver Broncos Sports Authority Field at Mile High(2001) 2.66
Green Bay Packers Lambeau Field(1957) 3.12
Tampa Bay Buccaneers Raymond James Stadium(1998) 4.72
Philadelphia Eagles Lincoln Financial Field(2003) 6.4
Oakland Raiders O.co Coliseum(1966) 6.66 from Oakland
San Diego Chargers Qualcomm Stadium(1967) 7.18
Kansas City Chiefs Arrowhead Stadium(1972) 7.9
Houston Texans NRG Stadium(2002) 8.91
New York Giants/ MetLife Stadium(2010) 11.16
New York Jets 11.16
Buffalo Bills Ralph Wilson Stadium(1973) 11.5
Washington Redskins FedEx Field(1997) 11.61
Miami Dolphins Sun Life Stadium(1987) 16.05
Arizona Cardinals University of Phoenix Stadium(2006) 16.62
Dallas Cowboys AT&T Stadium(2009) 18.21
New England Patriots Gillette Stadium(2002) 27.25
San Francisco 49ers Levi's Stadium(2014) 42.14 from San Francisco, 8.53 miles to San Jose

[Lions67]

Winnipeg is 1.01 miles from what??
MTSC is in the middle of downtown. so im not sure what you are trying to say here.

[mikecubs]

Sorry for the confusion. My fault. I figured someone would say something. Poor explanation of what I attempted to do. Here is what I tried to do. I used to-from.net. What I did was I typed in the name of the city, then the address of the arena/stadium to see how many miles away it gave me from what the site figured was the absolute 100% center point of the city. I shouldn't have used the word downtown I should have said what this site thinks is the absolute 100% centerpoint. Almost all of these facilities are outright downtown NOT 1-4 away miles away like I listed. The point I was trying to make was almost every NHL,NBA, MLB facility is right smack downtown surrounded by massive skyscrapers where the most workers are where you can walk to the arena/ballpark after work(attract Joe casual fan). At bear minimum you can clearly see the skyline in the distance, most of these places you are right next to the city skyline. Tukwila totally bucks this trend in a bad way.

I'll try something different later when I get time. I'll post an areal view of where each arena/stadium is located. I think this will give a much better picture than what I attempted to do.

[mikecubs]

Posted this way back but here it is again.

Shady oil-trading billionaire looks into NHL arena in Seattle suburb, everyone gets all excited
Posted on April 28, 2015 by Neil deMause
Move over, Chris Hansen! Your plans to build an arena for a nonexistent NBA team now have a competitor: Former oil trader (no, I’m not exactly sure what that is, or how you become rich doing it, or what he was doing for his first six years after getting his MBA, though it all seems to have something to do with profiting off third-world corruption) Ray Bartoszek has filed a zoning code interpretation request in the suburb of Tukwila, which would be the first step toward building an NHL arena there.

Bartoszek doesn’t have an NHL team, mind you, but he did reportedly offer to buy the Phoenix Coyotes in 2013 if they hadn’t gotten a new lease approved, and he owns some shares in the New York Yankees and, um, rich guy, okay? Rich guys must be taken seriously! Because rich!

Here’s how rich guy Ray Bartoszek says he will pay for building an arena in a Seattle suburb out near Sea-Tac airport for an NHL team that he doesn’t have yet:


The Seattle Times reports that the arena would be built on less than five acres of land, which is probably impossible, while Seattlepi.com says that “the proposed arena would house about 230 events per year,” which bwahahaha!

Anyway, rich guy filed a zoning application, so this now gives an NHL team in Seattle “momentum,” according to Yahoo! Sports. It must be nice to be rich. Remind me in my next life to get involved with buying commodities from outlaw states.

www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/04/28/8954/shady-oil-trading-billionaire-looks-into-nhl-arena-in-seattle-suburb-everyone-gets-all-excited/

[mikecubs]

There is an NBA partner for this now too. It's ex-NBA player Freddy Brown(LOL) the guy behind the failed emerald city project in 2008. He had a screwball idea to have an arena with a retractable roof.

This article is from April

Tukwila Arena in the Lead?


Just how real is the potential for the Tukwila arena proposed by Ray Bartoszek, Bill Russell, Fred Brown, and Jerry Lee? Very, apparently.

Geoff Baker of the Seattle Times and Chris Daniels of KING5-TV are both reporting about a packet of materials each has received from the city of Tukwila. Each contains descriptions of the amount of land Bartoszek's group has the option to purchase, as well as letters written from the city to NHL commissioner Gary Bettman and NBA commissioner Adam Silver last November.

According to Baker, Tukwila hopes to fast track the environmental review process to push their project into the lead to land both hockey and basketball franchises.

The documents, made available to The Seattle Times after a public-records request a month ago, include a letter from the city’s economic development administrator, Derek Speck, stating that an Environmental Impact Statement typically could be completed within "six to twelve months,’’ but the city would try to complete it sooner."
The environmental review process for the new Seahawks stadium (now CenturyLink Field) took about 8 months from a start in roughly late August 1997 to the publication of the FEIS on April 21, 1998. It's seen as a fairly smooth review process, especially in comparison to that undertaken for the SoDo arena proposal, the FEIS of which is still on schedule to be released next week on May 7th.

As this is considered a private project for SEPA purposes, they are only required to offer two or more options on the intended project site and a no-action alternative. Private projects do not require that other locations be considered in the EIS process.

Chris Daniels offers up a preliminary design of the arena featured in the information they acquired.

Baker notes that the strip of land owned by a Leuqar BB LLC out of Minnesota that was thought to be land owned by Bartoszek has actually not been purchased by his group yet. It, along with the sliver of land to the east of it that is owned by the city of Tukwila, are final pieces to be negotiated. As for the other land to be involved, Baker notes:

The eight parcels Bartoszek does control are all said to have finalized sale agreements to be exercised once the arena process unfolds further. Owners of the land in question were first approached late last year and made to sign non-disclosure agreements covering all details of sales worked out.
Now, we're still a long way from completion. Sources tell Sonics Rising that there is potential investment concern over the viability of the project. Between the arena construction and NHL and NBA team acquisitions, this could very well be a $2 billion investment before even taking into account operation of the teams and facilities. As details emerge and are refined, those concerns may be put to rest.

In addition, some apprehension has been expressed over some of those involved in the project group, namely Fred Brown. Daniels notes that the Tukwila documents identify Brown as having been the lead through some of this arena process. Brown was also the lead behind the earlier failed Emerald City Center project, and significant questions were raised during that process.


It remains to be seen what kind of response the city of Seattle and Chris Hansen and his SoDo group will provide to this latest development. In the meantime, the Port of Seattle is prematurely gloating over a perceived demise of the Hansen proposed arena. Stay classy, POS.

For now, though, this is a welcome advancement in the Seattle arena game. We look forward to more details.

More to come as it becomes available.


www.sonicsrising.com/2015/4/28/8511571/tukwila-arena-in-the-lead-seattle-arena-nba-nhl

[mikecubs]

From city data on what people think of this.

-If they build it in Tukwila and get a pro sports team or two, within 10 years they will be begging for a new arena. You need to build a stadium/arena in the population center with great transportation. It doesn't matter as much where people live, but where people work. Weekend games are never a problem no matter where the stadium is, but weekday games need to be near where people work, so they will go to the games after work. Bellevue would be better than Tukwila, but not much. I work for an MLB baseball team, and our stadium is in a terrible location. Which is why we have the worst attendance in the league, whether we make it to the world series or not. (Check out my thread later today with pics of where each arena/MLB ballpark is located and remember this post!!!!)

-Please no tukwila arena. The only option that makes sense is sodo, any other place creates massive transportation/traffic problems and virtually excludes people from many areas in our region from consistently attending.

-My Boston-dwelling brother, a fanatical Patriots fan, has given up going to Pats games because of the horrendous traffic nightmare down in analoguous-to-Tukwila Foxborough -- two hours, he reports, just to get out of the parking lot. On the other hand, to go to a Red Sox game in analogous-to-Sodo Fenway Park, he hops on the subway and is there in 20 minutes.

-I don't think that the distance is the main issue though; rather it has to do with a zillion people having no choice but to drive to a sports venue and park there rather than being able to get in and out easily via public transportation. The issue would be the same if the Pats were in Framingham or if the Sonics went to Puyallup.

-I think the Tukwila location blows and the renderings are any city's suburban arena. However I probably wouldn't be attending a lot of games anyway due to time and cost factors so I shouldn't be so picky. There's just something so cool about the SoDo sports district and the unique arena, on top of vastly superior transit options, that makes me want the SoDo location way more than the Tukwila location. Hell I'd even get behind a never going to happen Bellevue arena before this Tukwila location.

-I'd just like to say the Tukwila arena is one of the stupidest ideas I can think of in recent memory. No one wants to go to Tukwila for a game and those who do will just make our traffic situation that much worse.

-I was super excited at the prospect of going to live NHL hockey games - until the plan changed to Tukwila. I'm not going to rent a car to go to a hockey game. So, I not only won't attend a single game in Tukwila, I won't watch the team on tv either.

-Downtown Seattle regularly handles the movement of far larger volumes of people than any other area. It is the center of the region geographically, and it has two freeways going through it, countless buses and trains (many in dedicated tunnels), ferries, monorail, bike share, and tens of thousands of residents are within walking distance of any downtown location. There is nowhere (certainly not Tukwila) that can get a large volume of people in and out of more easily than downtown.

-I think it's even worse than some of the "tukwila won't be bad" people realize. Not only does seattle have the advantage of ferries, water taxi, Link light rail, Amtrack, Sounder North, Sounder South, Streetcars, Metro Hubs, Rapid Ride lines and Greyhound /Bolt bus all within walking distance. Where the fact that Tukwila lack of these option may preclude many people from places like the islands and peninsula from regularly attending and the fact that tukwila is not a major population center like seattle which would force a larger percentage of fans drive vs. Walk/bike/transit make the plan less than ideal. The real horror show that a tukwila arena will be will come down to traffic patterns. Unlike Sounders/Seahawks, NBA/NHL play almost nightly on Mon.-Fri. Evenings. Most games starting around the time rush hour is at its worst with commuters streaming south from Seattle and Belle down I5 and 405. What this arena will do is force tens of thousand of fans from Seattle and all points north and Bellevue and all points north on to these same arterial roadways at the same time heading the same direction almost nightly through the autumn, winter and spring. Anyone who has ever driven southbound on I5 and 405 in the afternoon will know this is an unsustainable proposition.

-Sounder station will be useless Monday through Friday though right? The trains will be full of commuters and BNSF won't allow extra runs as far as I know.
-Not to mention that you can't take Sounder AFTER the game is over either. This stadium location is insane.

-Ok, perhaps one of the stupidest Seattle planning ideas, and also not intelligent from a business perspective. Like you said, traffic will suck and it will be inconvenient for the majority of the area population to reach. Secondly, no one wants to go to Tukwila, especially not the Millenial population that the NBA/NHL is trying to capture. So many cities have built suburban arenas that they very quickly regret and tear down within years of opening. Movement is towards the city, not away. This Tukwila idea is waste on so many levels.

-It's not so much a matter of who has to travel where, but of whether you can get there easily via non-car transportation, and thereby avoid (a) the hassle of having to drive there to begin with and (b) the enormous mess that ensues when you leave at the end of the game.

SoDo: walking, biking, Sounder, Amtrak,light rail, ferries, busses

Tukwila: uh....?

-Yes if it's located in Tukwila where driving is the only option then of course the majority of the people would be driving. The traffic could be terrible there too, is there the infrastructure for such an increase in traffic between 5-7pm on weeknights?

SoDo is set up for car traffic AND for all those who elect not to drive. Tukwila just forces people to drive.

-Exactly this is a metro of 3.5 million, and Seattle is the center of it. It's centrally located within the region, and all major highways and transit lines lead to Seattle. I'm not sure you're right that most people drive to sporting events. In general less than half of the trips into downtown are by s.o.v. Or car pool. I'm sure sporting events might have a higher percentage of drivers than every day, but not as much as you think. Actually that's why I love going to sounders games, definitely feels like it's more real seattleites walking and taking trains and buses. Tukwilla on the other hand is the hub of nothing. Maybe it would be easier for people from south king county, but that's it. Same if it were in Lynwood people from snohomish county and parts of the east side could get there easier, but not people from Seattle or south King county. If the arena is built in Tukwilla, we get an N.H.L. team and the Sonics return I will never go to a game, because it's not at all convenient for me as a downtown resident to go. It would be really depressing to walk out of the game to a parking lot too, no bars, no restaurants. Sounds like a really lame experience to me.