mrconfusion87
1st Line Centre
Resident of the Tropical Hockey Wasteland
Posts: 415
|
Post by mrconfusion87 on Aug 8, 2011 22:04:41 GMT -6
Agreed! I think ANYBODY here or in the overall ROTJ community would have NO love for them Coyotes anyway. And what GreatCanadian said about Phoenix being strictly an attendance problem is SPOT ON! C'mon, the Cardinals are in Gongdale like the Yotes yet they sell out (or come close) regardless of their performance, and the fact that teams of every other pro hockey league under the sun that has tried to set up shop in Phoenix ALL either folded or relocated within a few years time shows that AZ NEVER HAS, DOES NOT and NEVER WILL care about hockey hence they DON'T deserve NHL hockey! It certainly doesn't help that a large chunk of their fanbase are s***heads and were bashing Winnipeg and Manitobans in general every chance they get when the spotlight was on them! So if and when the Coyotes pack up and move to Quebec City (or some other northern market), I'll be very happy! At least the Thrasher crowd, who were totally screwed over by their ownership, were more classy about it hence we as a community readily sympathized with their pain and are willing to invite them to continue following the team in their Winnipeg Jets incarnation! Which reminds me, where's DeathByPopcorn1990?
|
|
quackbeth
Captain "C"
By the pricking of my thumbs Something hockey this way comes!
Posts: 741
|
Post by quackbeth on Aug 9, 2011 4:38:05 GMT -6
Well, look on the bright side, folks: YOU don't have to share a division with those Destitute, Disease-Ridden Dying Desert Dogs! (I love alliteration as an English major...) But just LOOK at the Pacific Divison WITHOUT them in it... San Jose, GREAT expansion team that: -made sense, the Bay Area market works -didn't steal ANY existing franchise or fanbase -has been consistently competitive -has consistently filled the seats and garner fans Anaheim, My team ANOTHER GREAT expansion team, and, again: -made sense, as the LA market has two teams for MLB and the NBA and had two at one point in the NFL -didn't steal ANY existing franchise, and so didn't harm another fanbase or city -are consistently competitive -consistently fill seats and garner fans Los Angeles, which has been around since 1967...ans till hasn't won a Cup (HAHA, but WE HAVE!) And Dallas, which, admittedly, reall has no business having a hockey team, and the Stars should never have left Minnesota, but at least they've been competitive over the years and have filled their arena some of the time, and didn't rename the franchise in a vomit-inducing way (Coyotes-for-Jets, Hurricanes-for-Whalers, and then new expansion teams named the "Predators" and "Thrashers" just are sickening...at least Dallas retained the "Stars" name, and Colorado, for its taking the Nords, DOES at least get snow and "Avalanche" fits with hockey...and they've won and drawn well, so while the Nordiques must return and should never have left, at least Colorado/Dallas weren't total losses.) San Jose/Anaheim/Los Angeles/Dallas. That's a pretty good division! The first three form one of the hottest rivalries in the game today! And then...*sigh*...there are the Coyotes...that one blemish that makes the entire division stink and look like a joke JUST because their looming, joke-of-a-franchise is in it.
|
|
quackbeth
Captain "C"
By the pricking of my thumbs Something hockey this way comes!
Posts: 741
|
Post by quackbeth on Aug 9, 2011 5:23:07 GMT -6
Agreed! I think ANYBODY here or in the overall ROTJ community would have NO love for them Coyotes anyway. And what GreatCanadian said about Phoenix being strictly an attendance problem is SPOT ON! C'mon, the Cardinals are in Gongdale like the Yotes yet they sell out (or come close) regardless of their performance, and the fact that teams of every other pro hockey league under the sun that has tried to set up shop in Phoenix ALL either folded or relocated within a few years time shows that AZ NEVER HAS, DOES NOT and NEVER WILL care about hockey hence they DON'T deserve NHL hockey! It certainly doesn't help that a large chunk of their fanbase are s***heads and were bashing Winnipeg and Manitobans in general every chance they get when the spotlight was on them! So if and when the Coyotes pack up and move to Quebec City (or some other northern market), I'll be very happy! At least the Thrasher crowd, who were totally screwed over by their ownership, were more classy about it hence we as a community readily sympathized with their pain and are willing to invite them to continue following the team in their Winnipeg Jets incarnation! Which reminds me, where's DeathByPopcorn1990? I definitely agree with you, it REALLY hurts their cause that they have the audacity to attack Winnipeg and DARE to ask what right Winnipeg or Canada has to a new team...! But, again, being from the States and rooting for the Ducks first, I have another reason besides those you all have expressed: I TRULY FEAR that other NHL fans, particularly those in the Northern States and Canada, might look down on ALL expansion teams because of those pitiful puckheads mouthing off as they have... It takes away from the GOOD expansion teams! The San Jose Sharks, my Anaheim Ducks, the Tampa Bay Lightning... THEY don't deserve to be lumped in with the likes of the Coyotes, Thrashers, Panthers, Hurricanes, and Predators! But I fear in some fans' minds they might be, and they don't deserve that stigma. None of those franchises stole teams. None of them horrific names...Sharks works, Lightning is fine...probably my team, in all honesty, came closest to a "silly" hockey name with "Mighty Ducks," but hey, it was the 1990s, and it was a bit hokey, but it really grew on you once you got into it, and "Ducks" is still a good team name, and that's all we're named now... Those three teams filled and still fill arenas. (Not as much as in the last couple of years, but that's partially because of the recession down here in California...but even still, Ducks fans still show up in decent numbers, and they still make themselves heard--Honda Center is a LOUD arena!) They have short histories--1991 for SJ and TB, 1993 for my Ducks--but they're already rich ones...a Cup win each for my Ducks and the Lightning, a memorable 7-game epic Stanley Cup Series agaisnt the Devils for the Cup, we lost, but that was arguably the best Series in the last decade before this last one between Boston and Vancouver...the Lightning had that great series with the Bruins this yar, too...and the Sharks are always dominant in the reuglar season, and always make the playoffs. Here's another test: Throw out Shane Doan, as he's a former Jet... How many Coyotes players here can anyone name off the top of their heads? I can think of Bryzgalov--partly because he used to be a Duck--but no one else...and he's not even on the Yotes anymore, he had the good sense to LEAVE. How many Panthers players can you name? Predators players? (Pekka Rinne, maybe a couple defensemen, but that's it.) And I'd ask "How many Thrashers players?" but I get the feeling everyone here now knows that (former) team roster by heart...just a hunch, you folks might know some of those players NOW... But he're my point: Try that with Sharks, Lightning, and Ducks! Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Setoguchi...Dany Heatley and Jeff Friesen and Vincent Damphousse from a while back...Evgeni Nabokov recently...and you could keep going. From the Lightning, off the top of my head, I can think of Lecavalier and Stampkos, and currently no one else without a qucik glance at the roster, but then, they're not in my conference... And then from the Ducks, ANY NHL fan can rattle off our #1 line: PERRY-GETZLAF-RYAN! Oh--and some player by the name of Teemu Selanne as well, most folks would know who he is, right? And then most would also get our--usual--goalie, Jonas Hiller (PLEASE be OK and come back!) And from years past, anyone could name Paul Kariya and J.S. Giguere, and if they wanted to keep going, they could give the Niedermeyer borthers, Chris Pronger for a couple of seasons...Steve Rucchin, if you wanted to complete the first great line the Ducks ever had, Kariya-Rucchin-Selanne... And, again, you could go on. The point of all of this? These teams are NOT expansion trash, because they were founded correctly, built up correctly, are maintained correctly, and HAVE AN IDENTITY. The Sharks are that team that's #1 in the season, will surely win the President's trophy, and then find a way to fall in the posteason, whether its to the Canucks or to the Ducks in that shocker a couple years back or whatever else. The Lightning are a darkhorse team in the East that always seems to get overlooked with the Caps and Pens and Flyers and Bruins, and yet they still contend...granted they probably have the weakest identity of the bunch here, but they ahd some pretty rough years, it took them a while to get going (but not the 18+ years it's STILL taking Phoenix.) And then the Ducks really do live up to their cheezy 1990s big screen inspiration--they're that team of scrappers and over-achievers with a few electric stars, a solid goaltender, and then the rest just sort of all chip in where they can as the team goes on a playoff run, seemingly, at the end of every season, just gets in, and then is a darkhorse. The Sharks have big-time bruising power and blue-line shooters. The Ducks ahve those quick fowards and a rock-solid goalie. The Lightning have Lecavalier as the great leader of the pack. At least you KNOW who these teams are. No one "knows" who the Coyotes are, except for the fact they're that one, pitiful team that needs to be put down. And it all comes back to MARKET and IDENTITY to start with. San Jose was smart--the Bay Area had no team, and LA/SF rivalries are big in US sports historically, so it made sense... Anaheim was smart--instant rivalry with the other LA team in a market they new was big enough for two teams in any sport, and was hungry for more hockey after Gretzky had enriched the area in the 1980s with the Kings... And NOW, look what we have to show for it! LA-SJ-ANA is one of the best rivalries in the game today! Phoenix, by contrast, was formed on an island, all alone in the desert, with no big precedent (like the Seals for the Sharks) and no big new wave of hockey enthusiasm (like there was in Anaheim after Gretzky and the Mighty Duck movies) and no immediate rival to generate life (like BOTH SJ and ANA had in LA.) NO ONE wants to play "rival" with the Coyotes... Or Panthers... Or Preds... No one wnated to play with the Thrashers... They're Nowhere Teams, skating in their Nowhere Rinks, making all their Nowhere Plans for nobody... because nobody shows up. And THAT just makes the rest of those GOOD expansion teams--San Jose, Tampa, and Anaheim--look worse by association... And it's not fair. And, for that, I hate the Coyotes all the more.
|
|
|
Post by Tim on Aug 9, 2011 6:20:56 GMT -6
Something just take a little longer to die, but I feel in January 2012, we will be able to start poking Phoenix with a stick. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------Flatline!
|
|
|
Post by jetsorbust on Aug 9, 2011 7:19:16 GMT -6
Wow I love this thread.
Yes, I am 99% as happy as I could be, ever since May 31. When the Jets win the Cup, I'll inch up to 99.5%... but I just can't hit 100% until the Coyotes die!
It doesn't have to make total sense, it's just fun to hate them. Having said that however, there are a lot of reasons to hate Phoenix!
|
|
mrconfusion87
1st Line Centre
Resident of the Tropical Hockey Wasteland
Posts: 415
|
Post by mrconfusion87 on Aug 10, 2011 19:35:31 GMT -6
Agreed! I think ANYBODY here or in the overall ROTJ community would have NO love for them Coyotes anyway. And what GreatCanadian said about Phoenix being strictly an attendance problem is SPOT ON! C'mon, the Cardinals are in Gongdale like the Yotes yet they sell out (or come close) regardless of their performance, and the fact that teams of every other pro hockey league under the sun that has tried to set up shop in Phoenix ALL either folded or relocated within a few years time shows that AZ NEVER HAS, DOES NOT and NEVER WILL care about hockey hence they DON'T deserve NHL hockey! It certainly doesn't help that a large chunk of their fanbase are s***heads and were bashing Winnipeg and Manitobans in general every chance they get when the spotlight was on them! So if and when the Coyotes pack up and move to Quebec City (or some other northern market), I'll be very happy! At least the Thrasher crowd, who were totally screwed over by their ownership, were more classy about it hence we as a community readily sympathized with their pain and are willing to invite them to continue following the team in their Winnipeg Jets incarnation! Which reminds me, where's DeathByPopcorn1990? I definitely agree with you, it REALLY hurts their cause that they have the audacity to attack Winnipeg and DARE to ask what right Winnipeg or Canada has to a new team...! But, again, being from the States and rooting for the Ducks first, I have another reason besides those you all have expressed: I TRULY FEAR that other NHL fans, particularly those in the Northern States and Canada, might look down on ALL expansion teams because of those pitiful puckheads mouthing off as they have... It takes away from the GOOD expansion teams! The San Jose Sharks, my Anaheim Ducks, the Tampa Bay Lightning... THEY don't deserve to be lumped in with the likes of the Coyotes, Thrashers, Panthers, Hurricanes, and Predators! But I fear in some fans' minds they might be, and they don't deserve that stigma. None of those franchises stole teams. None of them horrific names...Sharks works, Lightning is fine...probably my team, in all honesty, came closest to a "silly" hockey name with "Mighty Ducks," but hey, it was the 1990s, and it was a bit hokey, but it really grew on you once you got into it, and "Ducks" is still a good team name, and that's all we're named now... Those three teams filled and still fill arenas. (Not as much as in the last couple of years, but that's partially because of the recession down here in California...but even still, Ducks fans still show up in decent numbers, and they still make themselves heard--Honda Center is a LOUD arena!) They have short histories--1991 for SJ and TB, 1993 for my Ducks--but they're already rich ones...a Cup win each for my Ducks and the Lightning, a memorable 7-game epic Stanley Cup Series agaisnt the Devils for the Cup, we lost, but that was arguably the best Series in the last decade before this last one between Boston and Vancouver...the Lightning had that great series with the Bruins this yar, too...and the Sharks are always dominant in the reuglar season, and always make the playoffs. Here's another test: Throw out Shane Doan, as he's a former Jet... How many Coyotes players here can anyone name off the top of their heads? I can think of Bryzgalov--partly because he used to be a Duck--but no one else...and he's not even on the Yotes anymore, he had the good sense to LEAVE. How many Panthers players can you name? Predators players? (Pekka Rinne, maybe a couple defensemen, but that's it.) And I'd ask "How many Thrashers players?" but I get the feeling everyone here now knows that (former) team roster by heart...just a hunch, you folks might know some of those players NOW... But he're my point: Try that with Sharks, Lightning, and Ducks! Joe Thornton, Patrick Marleau, Setoguchi...Dany Heatley and Jeff Friesen and Vincent Damphousse from a while back...Evgeni Nabokov recently...and you could keep going. From the Lightning, off the top of my head, I can think of Lecavalier and Stampkos, and currently no one else without a qucik glance at the roster, but then, they're not in my conference... And then from the Ducks, ANY NHL fan can rattle off our #1 line: PERRY-GETZLAF-RYAN! Oh--and some player by the name of Teemu Selanne as well, most folks would know who he is, right? And then most would also get our--usual--goalie, Jonas Hiller (PLEASE be OK and come back!) And from years past, anyone could name Paul Kariya and J.S. Giguere, and if they wanted to keep going, they could give the Niedermeyer borthers, Chris Pronger for a couple of seasons...Steve Rucchin, if you wanted to complete the first great line the Ducks ever had, Kariya-Rucchin-Selanne... And, again, you could go on. The point of all of this? These teams are NOT expansion trash, because they were founded correctly, built up correctly, are maintained correctly, and HAVE AN IDENTITY. The Sharks are that team that's #1 in the season, will surely win the President's trophy, and then find a way to fall in the posteason, whether its to the Canucks or to the Ducks in that shocker a couple years back or whatever else. The Lightning are a darkhorse team in the East that always seems to get overlooked with the Caps and Pens and Flyers and Bruins, and yet they still contend...granted they probably have the weakest identity of the bunch here, but they ahd some pretty rough years, it took them a while to get going (but not the 18+ years it's STILL taking Phoenix.) And then the Ducks really do live up to their cheezy 1990s big screen inspiration--they're that team of scrappers and over-achievers with a few electric stars, a solid goaltender, and then the rest just sort of all chip in where they can as the team goes on a playoff run, seemingly, at the end of every season, just gets in, and then is a darkhorse. The Sharks have big-time bruising power and blue-line shooters. The Ducks ahve those quick fowards and a rock-solid goalie. The Lightning have Lecavalier as the great leader of the pack. At least you KNOW who these teams are. No one "knows" who the Coyotes are, except for the fact they're that one, pitiful team that needs to be put down. And it all comes back to MARKET and IDENTITY to start with. San Jose was smart--the Bay Area had no team, and LA/SF rivalries are big in US sports historically, so it made sense... Anaheim was smart--instant rivalry with the other LA team in a market they new was big enough for two teams in any sport, and was hungry for more hockey after Gretzky had enriched the area in the 1980s with the Kings... And NOW, look what we have to show for it! LA-SJ-ANA is one of the best rivalries in the game today! Phoenix, by contrast, was formed on an island, all alone in the desert, with no big precedent (like the Seals for the Sharks) and no big new wave of hockey enthusiasm (like there was in Anaheim after Gretzky and the Mighty Duck movies) and no immediate rival to generate life (like BOTH SJ and ANA had in LA.) NO ONE wants to play "rival" with the Coyotes... Or Panthers... Or Preds... No one wnated to play with the Thrashers... They're Nowhere Teams, skating in their Nowhere Rinks, making all their Nowhere Plans for nobody... because nobody shows up. And THAT just makes the rest of those GOOD expansion teams--San Jose, Tampa, and Anaheim--look worse by association... And it's not fair. And, for that, I hate the Coyotes all the more. Thanks for explaining things from the Cali perspective! I have no issue with the Cali teams, except for the fact that the Ducks keep beating my Wild in the playoffs! GRRRR! Other than that it's all good! However, I'm kinda wary of calling Nashville... just yet at least, especially in light of the recent slow but steady solidification of the Preds' fanbase but of course they haven't been tested yet by a playoff-less season or so but if they can manage over 80% capacity even during such a period, I'd give them some respect... While, they may suck compared to the northern markets but they are FAR BETTER than Phoenix or Miami ever can be, or even Carolina whose attendance figures are very results dependent!
|
|
GreatCanadian
2nd Line Winger
Jets fan from New Brunswick
Posts: 348
|
Post by GreatCanadian on Aug 11, 2011 11:13:18 GMT -6
Let's look at how the NHL stands right now, once and for all.
Teams I think are running at full steam fanbase/marketing/interest wise. Not necessarily performance: - Vancouver - Calgary - Edmonton - Winnipeg - Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal - Boston - Detroit - Minnesota - Chicago - Philadelphia
Teams that on the surface don't have a 100% win-or-lose fanbase, but do well: - San Jose (good crowd, rivalry with other Cali teams) - Pittsburgh (Pretty much doing great because of Crosby/Malkin and co. would drop down the list otherwise) - New York Rangers (good, solid fanbase but not bulletproof) - Washington (see Pittsburgh situation vis-a-vis Ovechkin/Semin) - Anaheim (good fanbase. Not as big as it could be, but have some rivals)
Teams that have a moderate and/or fair weather fanbase. Not optimal but do ok: - New Jersey (fair weather-ish. what Pit/Wsh would look like without Crosby/Ovechkin) - Los Angeles (under the radar most of the time, but do well) - St Louis (somewhat lean years... lacking spark to get any more fans in) - Colorado (fair weather fans. once the dynasty was gone, the fans left with them) - Carolina (for a southern US city they market the team well and seem to keep the fans interest) - Nashville (growing fanbase. the team was patient and let things devellop and looks like it's paying off somewhat) - Buffalo (in decline) - Columbus (no soul on that team. nothing to get excited about and the fans know it) - Tampa Bay (depends on the team, but can have decent attendance) - Dallas (in a slump... again, fair weather fans but there is hope. My opinion a team in Houston would help both survive.. see Ana/LA/SJ)
Teams that are doing just enough to push away the relocation vultures: - New York Islanders (Doing the bare minimum but the team is terminally ill and midnight is approaching...) - Florida (no expiry date on them... but they are doing JUST enough to get by with a small fanbase)
Should be loooooong gone: - Phoenix
-----------------
So, overall, Bettman's expansion did not turn out THAT bad really, if we try and look at it from a business sense and a somewhat neutral sense. Yes, there is still one big mistake that has to be corrected (Quebec) but things are improving with time.
I also think it was necessary to go to new markets.
A big boost to the league would be a well-oiled US TV contract. But to have a chance at that contract, the NHL needed to be in line with the other "Big 4" leagues and get to 30-32 teams for them to be taken seriously. A big US TV contract would actually be neat and I support the idea. Imagine if our southern neighbours were as connected, informed and exposed to the NHL as we are up here with almost complete coverage available to all of us. A lot of people would start to switch over if done right. I just don't think it will save Florida, NYI or Phoenix.
Hamilton, Quebec and Seattle should be there in their place in my opinion.
So, we piss on the southern teams a lot but really most of them are holding their own and do have a reasonable fanbase considering they are all located in either Football, Baseball or NASCAR territory. I agree with quackbeth that we shouldn't be too hard on California teams as they are going good.
|
|
quackbeth
Captain "C"
By the pricking of my thumbs Something hockey this way comes!
Posts: 741
|
Post by quackbeth on Aug 11, 2011 16:20:11 GMT -6
Let's look at how the NHL stands right now, once and for all. Teams I think are running at full steam fanbase/marketing/interest wise. Not necessarily performance: - Vancouver (Agree With all of these...)- Calgary- Edmonton[/b - Winnipeg - Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal - Boston - Detroit - Minnesota - Chicago - Philadelphia
Teams that on the surface don't have a 100% win-or-lose fanbase, but do well: - San Jose (good crowd, rivalry with other Cali teams) - Pittsburgh (Pretty much doing great because of Crosby/Malkin and co. would drop down the list otherwise) - New York Rangers (good, solid fanbase but not bulletproof) (I'd bump it up with the Top 12 above it, it's a NYC market, playoffs, a long history, good arena) Washington (see Pittsburgh situation vis-a-vis Ovechkin/Semin) - Anaheim (good fanbase. Not as big as it could be, but have some rivals) (Again, the recession's hurt So. Cal...and for an expansion team, we've been pretty consistent...but yeah, they do belong about here)
Teams that have a moderate and/or fair weather fanbase. Not optimal but do ok: - New Jersey (fair weather-ish. what Pit/Wsh would look like without Crosby/Ovechkin) - Los Angeles (under the radar most of the time, but do well) (OH YES...LA=Huge-but-fair-weather-fanbase for all sports except, maybe, basketball)- St Louis (somewhat lean years... lacking spark to get any more fans in) - Colorado (fair weather fans. once the dynasty was gone, the fans left with them) - Carolina (for a southern US city they market the team well and seem to keep the fans interest) - Nashville (growing fanbase. the team was patient and let things devellop and looks like it's paying off somewhat) (I agree things are getting better in terms of on-ice performance, but they've still had regular season attendance issues...this last playoff win--DAMN YOU, PEKKA RINNE!--might help, but we'll see, they could go the TB or CAR route here, and if they moved tomorrow, not many would weep)- Buffalo (in decline) (VERY sad...one of my earliest non-Duck memories is the 1999 Stanley Cup, I LOVED Dominik Hasek back then...if they had won that Cup agaisnt the Stars, who I HATED--the Stars and Wings always seemed to end my Ducks' playoff hopes and dreams--I might have been sporting the blue-and-yellow or their classic red-white-black on here, as Hasek was my favorite non-Ducks player, and I'd pulled for the Sabres that whole run after the Ducks went down...VERY sad to see them fall like this!) Columbus (no soul on that team. nothing to get excited about and the fans know it) (HERE is a team that could relocate and no one would notice or care...which is a shame, Ohio isn't a bad place for hockey, but it's just not working, and with so many other markets hungry for hockey further north, this team might ultimately be a casualty.)- Tampa Bay (depends on the team, but can have decent attendance) - Dallas (in a slump... again, fair weather fans but there is hope. My opinion a team in Houston would help both survive.. see Ana/LA/SJ) (I don't think a Houston team would help the same way, at least not NOW...in 2000, when the Stars were HOT and fresh off a Cup win, then there might have been a "Modano Effect" in Texas the same way there was a "Gretzky Effect" here in California that gave rise to the Sharks, Ducks, and that great tree-way rivalry; with that moment passed, the US South in a sharp recession, football #1 in Texas, with Dallas AND Houston sporting contending teams, and the Stars without a great figure like Modano, Derian Hatcher, or Brett Hull...it just can't happen right now--10 years ago, that might have worked, but now, that window has shut tight with the sTars in economic decline.)Teams that are doing just enough to push away the relocation vultures: - New York Islanders (Doing the bare minimum but the team is terminally ill and midnight is approaching...) (Sad...)- Florida (no expiry date on them... but they are doing JUST enough to get by with a small fanbase) (I can't see this team getting any better anytime soon, and with the Lightning and maybe the Predators giving Southern US hockey fans their fix with playoff success, let lone the possibility of the Hurricanes, who just missed the playoffs, this looks to be a team that WILL die, and should die--it's just a matter of when, and how that lease will factor into where and when they'll go. The Lightning are a good franchise, as are the Stars...and one team each is enough for both football-hungry states, Texas and Florida.)Should be loooooong gone: - Phoenix (Yeeeeep...)
-----------------
So, overall, Bettman's expansion did not turn out THAT bad really, if we try and look at it from a business sense and a somewhat neutral sense. Yes, there is still one big mistake that has to be corrected (Quebec) but things are improving with time.
I also think it was necessary to go to new markets.
A big boost to the league would be a well-oiled US TV contract. But to have a chance at that contract, the NHL needed to be in line with the other "Big 4" leagues and get to 30-32 teams for them to be taken seriously. A big US TV contract would actually be neat and I support the idea. Imagine if our southern neighbours were as connected, informed and exposed to the NHL as we are up here with almost complete coverage available to all of us. A lot of people would start to switch over if done right. I just don't think it will save Florida, NYI or Phoenix. (I hope you're wrong about the NYI...even a move to Brooklyn, which is being rumored, is fine, just keep them in NY and keep them the Isles...they don't deserve to die, and if Bettman dug in THAT HARD with the Yotes, he'd better FORTIFY for the Isles and keep them there...even setting aside the obvious differences in history and prestige, that's Arizona's market vs. NEW YORK's market...even Bettman's not foolish neough to lose THAT.)
Hamilton, Quebec and Seattle should be there in their place in my opinion. (Hamilton is a tricky case...they surely deserve one, and yet the Leafs and Sabres would have a fit, especially the Sabres, who, as you say, are just getting by...Quebec's a given, they're getting the Coyotiques next year...yes, Seattle would be a good choice...and then, I'd also like to see the Hockey Holy Trinity of Ressurections completed with Hartford's return or, if "Hartford" sounds to small, call then the "New England Whalers," jsut like the Patriots call the whole region home...assuming the Yotes move and the Isles stay, that leaves Florida and then possibly Nashville and Columbus on thin ice, so if two of those three move, best case scenario from my point-of-view: Yotes=Nordiques, Panthers=Seattle Somethings, Columbus/Nashville=Hartford/New England Whalers, and the NHL, then, is set at a VERY good setup for 30 teams...if it ever went to 32, then maybe give Regina or Hamilton a team, and the last NHL franchise to Portland--to create a three-way rivalry with the Seattle Somethngs and the Canucks--or else Kansas City or Houston.) So, we piss on the southern teams a lot but really most of them are holding their own and do have a reasonable fanbase considering they are all located in either Football, Baseball or NASCAR territory. I agree with quackbeth that we shouldn't be too hard on California teams as they are going good.
|
|
quackbeth
Captain "C"
By the pricking of my thumbs Something hockey this way comes!
Posts: 741
|
Post by quackbeth on Aug 11, 2011 16:21:18 GMT -6
...
I didn't realize how hard to read that'd be... :/
|
|
mrconfusion87
1st Line Centre
Resident of the Tropical Hockey Wasteland
Posts: 415
|
Post by mrconfusion87 on Aug 11, 2011 19:23:03 GMT -6
Let's look at how the NHL stands right now, once and for all. Teams I think are running at full steam fanbase/marketing/interest wise. Not necessarily performance: - Vancouver- Calgary- Edmonton- Winnipeg- Toronto- Ottawa- Montreal- Boston- Detroit- Minnesota- Chicago- PhiladelphiaTeams that on the surface don't have a 100% win-or-lose fanbase, but do well: - San Jose (good crowd, rivalry with other Cali teams) - Pittsburgh (Pretty much doing great because of Crosby/Malkin and co. would drop down the list otherwise) - New York Rangers (good, solid fanbase but not bulletproof) - Washington (see Pittsburgh situation vis-a-vis Ovechkin/Semin) - Anaheim (good fanbase. Not as big as it could be, but have some rivals) Teams that have a moderate and/or fair weather fanbase. Not optimal but do ok: - New Jersey (fair weather-ish. what Pit/Wsh would look like without Crosby/Ovechkin) - Los Angeles (under the radar most of the time, but do well) - St Louis (somewhat lean years... lacking spark to get any more fans in) - Colorado (fair weather fans. once the dynasty was gone, the fans left with them) - Carolina (for a southern US city they market the team well and seem to keep the fans interest) - Nashville (growing fanbase. the team was patient and let things devellop and looks like it's paying off somewhat) - Buffalo (in decline) - Columbus (no soul on that team. nothing to get excited about and the fans know it) - Tampa Bay (depends on the team, but can have decent attendance) - Dallas (in a slump... again, fair weather fans but there is hope. My opinion a team in Houston would help both survive.. see Ana/LA/SJ) Teams that are doing just enough to push away the relocation vultures: - New York Islanders (Doing the bare minimum but the team is terminally ill and midnight is approaching...) - Florida (no expiry date on them... but they are doing JUST enough to get by with a small fanbase) Should be loooooong gone: - Phoenix----------------- So, overall, Bettman's expansion did not turn out THAT bad really, if we try and look at it from a business sense and a somewhat neutral sense. Yes, there is still one big mistake that has to be corrected (Quebec) but things are improving with time. I also think it was necessary to go to new markets. A big boost to the league would be a well-oiled US TV contract. But to have a chance at that contract, the NHL needed to be in line with the other "Big 4" leagues and get to 30-32 teams for them to be taken seriously. A big US TV contract would actually be neat and I support the idea. Imagine if our southern neighbours were as connected, informed and exposed to the NHL as we are up here with almost complete coverage available to all of us. A lot of people would start to switch over if done right. I just don't think it will save Florida, NYI or Phoenix. Hamilton, Quebec and Seattle should be there in their place in my opinion. So, we piss on the southern teams a lot but really most of them are holding their own and do have a reasonable fanbase considering they are all located in either Football, Baseball or NASCAR territory. I agree with quackbeth that we shouldn't be too hard on California teams as they are going good. I think you're fairly spot on with your league recap on fanbases. However I disagree with your assessment of Buffalo which should be put in a higher category in your list. The ONLY thing that is really in decline is their economy, and to a lesser extent population. However they still got a fairly solid above 95 attendance, and among the highest TV ratings for the league in the USA and a fairly loyal (as far as I can tell) following! So please correct that one bit... thanks!
|
|
|
Post by Douggy-D on Aug 11, 2011 19:50:46 GMT -6
I actually think the Devils' revenue is pretty similar to that of the Sharks...
|
|
GreatCanadian
2nd Line Winger
Jets fan from New Brunswick
Posts: 348
|
Post by GreatCanadian on Aug 11, 2011 21:02:53 GMT -6
... I didn't realize how hard to read that'd be... :/ I tried super hard to read what you added... but my eyes hurt Also, Regina is a tiny city of ~190,000 and could not support the NHL. The interest is there, but the city just isn't big enough. If you are thinking the Saskatchewan Roughriders football team, they are a pretty special case and for many reasons would be impossible to be duplicated with an NHL team. I think you're fairly spot on with your league recap on fanbases. However I disagree with your assessment of Buffalo which should be put in a higher category in your list. The ONLY thing that is really in decline is their economy, and to a lesser extent population. However they still got a fairly solid above 95 attendance, and among the highest TV ratings for the league in the USA and a fairly loyal (as far as I can tell) following! So please correct that one bit... thanks! I did not put them in a higher category because of the somewhat frail situation they are in. The city's population is declining, they rely heavily on Southern Ontario for their fanbase, and the team did have some patchy attendance over the last few years. Nothing drastic, but it is noticable from time to time. They aren't bad... just lacking a little extra something and it just feels like it could all unwravel fairly easily. IT IS NOT A SHOT AT BUFFALO AT ALL! I think they have a decent fanbase.
|
|
mrconfusion87
1st Line Centre
Resident of the Tropical Hockey Wasteland
Posts: 415
|
Post by mrconfusion87 on Aug 11, 2011 22:46:58 GMT -6
I did not put them in a higher category because of the somewhat frail situation they are in. The city's population is declining, they rely heavily on Southern Ontario for their fanbase, and the team did have some patchy attendance over the last few years. Nothing drastic, but it is noticable from time to time. They aren't bad... just lacking a little extra something and it just feels like it could all unwravel fairly easily. IT IS NOT A SHOT AT BUFFALO AT ALL! I think they have a decent fanbase. Ok fair enough though I'll be keeping my fingers crossed that they somehow pull through somehow because it would be ashamed to lose such a market. But at least they got Terry Pegula owning the team and his goal is WINNING a Stanley Cup (or more) in mind! Anyway, there is one thing you can never take away from Upstate NY - the fact they are one of the BIG FOUR US hockey talent hotbeds alongside MN, MI and MA. Just look at the NHL or NCAA hockey roster lists for evidence...
|
|
|
Post by hawker14 on Aug 12, 2011 0:31:49 GMT -6
I think you're fairly spot on with your league recap on fanbases. However I disagree with your assessment of Buffalo which should be put in a higher category in your list. The ONLY thing that is really in decline is their economy, and to a lesser extent population. However they still got a fairly solid above 95 attendance, and among the highest TV ratings for the league in the USA and a fairly loyal (as far as I can tell) following! So please correct that one bit... thanks! I did not put them in a higher category because of the somewhat frail situation they are in. The city's population is declining, they rely heavily on Southern Ontario for their fanbase, and the team did have some patchy attendance over the last few years. Nothing drastic, but it is noticable from time to time.They aren't bad... just lacking a little extra something and it just feels like it could all unwravel fairly easily. IT IS NOT A SHOT AT BUFFALO AT ALL! I think they have a decent fanbase. The Sabres have a tremendous fanbase in Buffalo. Their tv numbers and STH's prove this. Their season ticket holders are only ~15% from Canada, similar to the Bills. Their attendance of 18,000+ over the past five seasons definitely isn't spotty. It isn't a rich city, but their hockey fans are spending what they have on the Sabres. To me, that IS a hockey fanbase.
|
|
mrconfusion87
1st Line Centre
Resident of the Tropical Hockey Wasteland
Posts: 415
|
Post by mrconfusion87 on Aug 13, 2011 0:58:39 GMT -6
I did not put them in a higher category because of the somewhat frail situation they are in. The city's population is declining, they rely heavily on Southern Ontario for their fanbase, and the team did have some patchy attendance over the last few years. Nothing drastic, but it is noticable from time to time.They aren't bad... just lacking a little extra something and it just feels like it could all unwravel fairly easily. IT IS NOT A SHOT AT BUFFALO AT ALL! I think they have a decent fanbase. The Sabres have a tremendous fanbase in Buffalo. Their tv numbers and STH's prove this. Their season ticket holders are only ~15% from Canada, similar to the Bills. Their attendance of 18,000+ over the past five seasons definitely isn't spotty. It isn't a rich city, but their hockey fans are spending what they have on the Sabres. To me, that IS a hockey fanbase. Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone here with my opinion regarding Buffalo!
|
|