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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 0:59:12 GMT -6
The NHL has approved a season ticket drive to William Foley and the Maloof family, potential owners of the Las Vegas expansion team. This will be similar to the drive the Jets did. If the goals are met the deposits will be non refundable. This should light a fire under the Seattle powers that be to get their arena done ASAP, as they would be the next in line for an expansion team. Quebec City, no surprise, is not being considered and will have to wait for a relocation opportunity. In light of the expansion talks the deal to sell 51% of the Arizona Coyotes to Andrew Barroway is all but dead. It appeared as though Barroway was interested in flipping the team to owners that would relocate the team or move it to Vegas himself. This isn't going to light a fire under Seattle. Numbers don't pencil out to mostly privately fund an arena without NBA. Milwaukee needs to be resolved 1st before NBA expands.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 9, 2014 1:06:34 GMT -6
A team in Vegas would never last. It's 1/2 the population of Phoenix, and Canadians actually live in Arizona. Canadians visit Las Vegas, but it's short term, and I guarantee you the last thing they would want to do is watch an NHL game. This move has disaster written all over it. The NHL will be offered a boatload full of money for the Casino bigwigs, but just like Phoenix, they owner will realize that hockey in Nevada is a losing proposition, and bail out on the team. If Arizona can't draw flies, imagine what a city that revolves around the service industry will average in terms of attendance.
Bettman and Company have given no thought or consideration, as to the long term viability of a team in Sin City.
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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 1:43:00 GMT -6
^^^ This is going to be a total debacle. The NHL has no clue whatsoever on what they are doing. It's a total bush league and minor league sport thanks to the people who run the sport. I really wonder if they ever do market research in the NHL like look at population, fan interest, per capita income, amount of transient people etc...? I can at least see why the NHL was so interested in Phoenix/ Florida. Big populations/fast growing/big tv markets and if the sport ever caught on it would have helped in getting a big TV deal. All the other sports basically are in the top 17 biggest American TV markets(except NFL isn't in LA due to no stadium and NBA isn't in Seattle due to no arena) so I can see the NHL thinking lets copy them and we will get a big TV like them someday. It's not the right strategy because Phoenix/Florida suck as markets and the networks won't pay what they pay the other sports because of that but still I can see the logic behind the thinking.
I don't see any logic behind Vegas. Not only is it only 2M, the city is only slightly above average in terms of population growth rate, the per capita income is horrific(its only $36,676,000 which will be the lowest in the NHL), 1/3rd of the people are sleeping or working at any given time which makes the market even smaller. Vegas is a VERY small TV market and will always will be so if by some miracle it did catch on it still won't help with the national TV deal that much. Casinos aren't going to buy the tickets long term because the guest who come to vegas come there to mostly gamble, see a show and *****. Not see NHL. Other problem with Vegas compare to Phoenix is there is no local Sammy Chivara to bail the team out. At least with Phoenix they got a free arena and an illegal arena management fee.
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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 1:54:15 GMT -6
Demographics of NHL markets(sorry it's so jumbled) using combined statistical area. Usually CSA counts places within 60miles(ish) sometimes they count farther sometimes they don't count places within 60 miles. For the Vegas CSA I took out Lake Havasu City-Kingman(203,030)since it's 153 miles away!!! but left in Pahrump(42,297) since it's only 62 miles away.
rank team/town population fortune 1000 companies per capita income
1 New York Rangers/ 23,484,225 144 $58,119,000 2 New Jersey Devils/ 23,484,225 144 $58,119,000 3 New York Islanders 23,484,225 144 $58,119,000 4 Los Angeles Kings/ 18,351,929 38 $43,008,000 5 Anaheim Ducks 18,351,929 38 $43,008,000
6 Chicago Blackhawks 9,912,730 63 $47,831,000 7 *Washington Capitals 9,443,180 37 $57,810,000 8 Toronto Maple Leafs 8,997,556 NA $44,462,000 9 San Jose Sharks 8,469,854 59 $60,603,000 10 Boston Bruins 8,041,303 32 $54,967,000 11 Dallas Stars 7,206,144 40 $45,568,000 12 Philadelphia Flyers 7,146,706 29 $49,831,000
Note- This should be 8.3M They throw places like Allentown and Trenton in with New York when they should be in with Philly.
13 Florida Panthers 5,828,191 13 $44,222,000
This is metro instead of CSA because they count places for CSA that are over 100 miles away which is stupid. 14 Detroit Red Wings 5,314,163 18 $41,276,000
This is underinflated big time. Windor, Leamington ontario and Toledo should be counted bringing the total to 6.489M 15 Arizona Coyotes 4,398,762 13 $38,006,000
16 Montreal Canadiens 3,919,386 NA $38,281,000
Other than Toronto Canada doesn't have CSA. If they did Montreal's total would be about 4.4M 17 Minnesota Wild 3,797,883 26 $49,191,000 18 Colorado Avalanche 3,277,309 19 $49,623,000
Fort Collins and Colorado Springs should be considered bring the total to 4.2M
19 St. Louis Blues 2,905,893 18 $44,153,000 20 Tampa Bay Lightning 2,870,569 7 $40,862,000
Terrible underinflation. Sarasota and Lakeland should be included bringing the total to 4.2M and 9 fortune 1000 companies.
21 Pittsburgh Penguins 2,659,937 15 $46,458,000
22 Vancouver Canucks 2,382,368 NA $41,031,000
If Canada had CSA Vancouver would be 2.6M picking up Abbotsford, Chiliwak and Squamish 23 Columbus Blue Jackets 2,370,839 15 $41,156,000 24 Las Vegas 2,070,165 7 $36,676,000
24 Carolina Hurricanes 2,037,430 4 $41,445,000
This doesn't count 4 other places withing 52 miles like Wilson, Fayetteville, Goldsboro and Rockey Mount. If you count them it comes out to 2.77M. When you look at TV market size they DO count these. Raleigh crushes Vegas TV market wise. Other thing is Raleigh one of the fastest growing cities in either the US or Canada 25 Nashville Predators 1,876,933 11 $44,201,000
Another underinflation. Clarksville 272,570 is only 40 miles away. Bowling green(163,536 is 57 miles away)I'd go with 2.271M for Nashville population. 26 Calgary Flames 1,336,334 NA $56,600,000 27 Ottawa Senators 1,248,544 NA $49,657,000 28 Edmonton Oilers 1,241,664 NA $49,266,000 29 Buffalo Sabres 1,213,007 3 $42,413,000
Underinflated. They are on the Canadian boarder and Bettman went crazy trying to prevent a Hamilton team so he could save this team. Got to consider Rochester a bit too. 30 Winnipeg Jets 754,784 NA $38,806,000
So the only smaller places than Vegas are 1. Crazy Canadian markets where population don't matter 2. Buffalo which is on the Canadian boarder and is propped up by Canadian fans 3. Nashville and Raleigh which are undercounted and in reality bigger than Vegas plus Nashville and Raleigh aren't that great anyway.
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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 2:37:16 GMT -6
NHL TV markets in the US. The ranking on the left is the overall size of the TV market in the US. Here is where Vegas would rank.
Rank City TV homes 1 New York (Rangers/New Jersey Devils/New York Islanders) 7,461,030 2 Los Angeles (Kings/Anaheim Ducks) 5,665,780 3 Chicago (Blackhawks) 3,534,080 4 Philadelphia (Flyers) 2,963,500 5 Dallas-Ft. Worth (Stars) 2,655,290 6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose (Sharks) 2,518,900 7 Boston (Manchester) (Bruins) 2,433,040 8 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) (Capitals) 2,412,250 11 Detroit (Redwings) 1,856,400 12 Phoenix (Prescott) (Coyotes) 1,855,310 14 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) (Lightning) 1,827,510 15 Minneapolis-St. Paul (Minnesota Wild) 1,748,070 16 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale (Florida Panthers) 1,663,290 17 Denver (Colorado Avalanche) 1,574,610 21 St. Louis (Blues) 1,254,530 23 Pittsburgh (Penguins) 1,181,540 24 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) (Carolina Hurricanes) 1,165,120 29 Nashville (Predators) 1,043,440 32 Columbus, OH (Blue Jackets) 928,530 42 Las Vegas 726,010 52 Buffalo (Sabres) 634,280
They have Canada and Rochester Vegas has nothing like that. Other considerations 13 Seattle-Tacoma 1,847,780
Here is where Seattle would rank
27 Baltimore 1,095,240
Only 35 miles away from DC.
38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 809,640
This is part of the Miami metro area but they count it as a separate TV market 53 Providence-New Bedford 614,880
Part of Boston combined statistical area only 50 miles away
68 Flint-Saginaw-Bay City 448,960
Part of the combined statistical area of Detroit, only an hour away 76 Toledo 415,000
52 miles from Detroit
78 Rochester, NY 402,300
Little over an hour from Buffalo
89 Colorado Springs-Pueblo 353,790
Little over an hour from Denver
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Post by Tim on Dec 9, 2014 6:29:14 GMT -6
they might sell a lot of tickets at first, but I'm not sure it'll last...why would Casinos want to send their customers OUT of their buildings?..team will lack local fans... other problem is if visitors to Vegas don't care for the comp tickets and see them as a value and something to be actually used. If they don't find them as a value and use them then the casinos won't buy the tickets anymore. That is thinking to far ahead for both party's, it's all about getting the first sport franchise.
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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 10:01:24 GMT -6
But why? What is the attraction of a small poor transient place with nothing located around it even if you are the 1st and only team?
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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 10:03:27 GMT -6
Viva! NHL approves Vegas ticket driveSpeculation that the NHL will one day expand into Las Vegas was kicked into overdrive Monday, as commissioner Gary Bettman confirmed that the league’s Board of Governors has permitted prospective owner Bill Foley to conduct a season-ticket drive in order to gauge interest in the market. More: Bettman proceeded to temper excitement and buzz surrounding the news, asking reporters “please do not make more out of this than it is.” Might be too late for that, though. Foley, along with the Maloof family, was reported as the league’s chosen ownership group by the New York Post last month. That report coincided with news that NHL deputy commissioner Bill Daly toured the construction site of MGM’s $350 million, 20,000-seat arena; the Post also reported the proposed Vegas franchise fee was $400 million. As such, it’s not surprising the league has greenlit a ticket drive. There are several unknowns about the viability of a Las Vegas team, and the ability to both build and maintain a local fanbase remains chief among them. “What’s difficult on making a call on Vegas is it’s such a unique market,” Daly said in November. “It’s really hard to know. The owners are going to have to be satisfied that the prospects of putting a franchise there are good and the fundamentals are solid.” Hence the BOG allowing prospective owners to do some homework. The key, it seems, is Foley and Co. figuring out if there’s enough local interest to work with. In terms of market size and population, Vegas is relatively close to the same size as Columbus, but dramatically different in terms of dynamics (ex: the number of Vegas employees that do shift work) and rival entertainment options (because, y’know, it’s Vegas.)
And one thing is clear: the NHL’s skeptical of a team going to Vegas under the pretense of tourists, snowbirds and casino patrons filling the arena.
“You can’t depend on tourists to fill your building every night — even rich ones,” Daly explained. “You really need a local fan base.”prohockeytalk.nbcsports.com/2014/12/08/viva-nhl-approves-proposed-vegas-owner-to-begin-ticket-drive/
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Post by JETStender on Dec 9, 2014 10:22:55 GMT -6
I wish people would stop saying a 20,000 seat arena. It's projected to be 17,500 for hockey pending final seating arraignments .
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Post by puckshmuck on Dec 9, 2014 20:31:12 GMT -6
Great. Let's put a team in a market that is likely worse than Arizona.
NHLogic
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Post by wolfmannick on Dec 9, 2014 20:33:38 GMT -6
^ Casinos will liekly buy up all the tickets, which means actual paid attendance just not a very big fan base.
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Post by puckshmuck on Dec 9, 2014 20:57:01 GMT -6
^ Casinos will liekly buy up all the tickets, which means actual paid attendance just not a very big fan base. Well if that is what they are banking on for survival in the desert, then they don't have a prayer for the long term.
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Post by mikecubs on Dec 9, 2014 23:05:46 GMT -6
^ Casinos will liekly buy up all the tickets, which means actual paid attendance just not a very big fan base. Even Daly has been quoted that that won't work. They need a local fan base of 10,000 to 12,000 season ticket holders.
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Post by calgaryflames on Dec 10, 2014 11:29:31 GMT -6
www.tsn.ca/las-vegas-season-ticket-drive-raises-more-questions-about-nhl-expansion-1.155684Las Vegas season-ticket drive raises more questions about NHL expansion I just love the part how Daly says Florida and Arizona are 100 % stable. Just like they were so adamant a month ago on how the league WAS NOT expanding. I really get a kick out of Bettman and Daly all the time with their denials. BOCA RATON, Fla. - By giving millionaire businessman Bill Foley the go-ahead to gauge interest in expanding to Las Vegas with a season-ticket drive, the NHL has opened the door to plenty of other questions in that market and others. In Las Vegas, there's the value of the impending season-ticket drive and its potential role in paving the way for a team in what would be the most unique market in hockey. In other places, like Quebec City and Seattle, it raises concerns about just how long they might have to wait. Foley isn't expected to begin the ticket drive until after the New Year, and at that point the NHL will have some input because there's no shortage of curiosity about Las Vegas. "Mr. Foley, who is investing a considerable amount of time and effort in expressing his interest, wants to have a good idea as to whether or not it's a good idea," commissioner Gary Bettman said Tuesday after the board of governors meeting wrapped up. "We're interested to know the results, as well ... if he just wants people to sign a piece of paper and say I'm interested, I'm not sure that's the same as somebody taking a deposit." A mythical ticket drive — with no fans actually committing to buying — is unprecedented in the NHL. The Winnipeg Jets needed to show they could support a team before the board of governors approved the relocation of the Atlanta Thrashers, but this is something different. And it's also different from what former Research In Motion CEO Jim Balsillie did when he listed season tickets for sale for the Nashville Predators, except in Hamilton, Ont. The league didn't take too kindly to that. "The only other precedent, which was a bad precedent, was somebody went off without permission and did it in the context of moving an existing club that wasn't going to move," Bettman said. What this ticket drive will look like is not crystal clear. Deputy commissioner Bill Daly said the league was expecting to meet with Foley's people next week in New York. On Monday the board of governors raised no objections to Foley's request for the ticket drive, and the consensus seemed to be that there's no harm, no foul in watching the proceedings unfold in Las Vegas. "When I heard it, it was like, 'Why not?'" Nashville Predators general manager David Poile said. "Better to be safe than sorry, so to speak. I'd never heard of that before. It's just a unique idea." So unique to Las Vegas, with its casinos, service industry and limited history of hosting pro sports teams, that there's no point in undergoing a similar exercise in Quebec City or Seattle. Quebec already has an arena on the way, a fan base that previously supported an NHL franchise and a potential owner in Quebecor. Seattle does not have an arena, nor a guaranteed owner, but it has become a burgeoning sports town with the NFL's Seahawks, MLB's Mariners and Sounders FC of MLS. With Las Vegas now at least given the opportunity to be the front-runner on NHL expansion, Quebec City and Seattle may ultimately have to wait until the league is willing to go to 32 teams. Or either city could be a landing spot for relocation. Small crowds at Florida Panthers games and the continued volatile Arizona Coyotes situation have opened up those franchises for talk about moving. But with Nordiques fans hoping the Panthers can head north from Sunrise, Bettman steadfastly maintained that the team was staying put. "Nobody should be focusing on the Panthers as a relocation candidate. Period," Bettman said. "It's inconsistent with everything we know and believe, it's inconsistent with everything (owner) Vinnie Viola would be telling me and inconsistent meaning he has no intention of moving the club. He is committed to South Florida." The Panthers are averaging 8,849 fans a game, lowest in the NHL. That's partially a product of the organization cutting back on giving out free tickets. Because of that, Bettman said he's not concerned about the crowd pictures at Panthers games showing so many empty seats because he's convinced this is the beginning of a business process for the team. "If we're having this conversation in two or three years, it might be a different issue," Bettman said. "But I don't believe we will. I believe that this market will support the Panthers and that they will reform the way they've done business over the last few years and I think the community with respond positively." The Coyotes have the rest of this campaign and three more seasons on their lease deal with Gila River Arena in Glendale. What's under the microscope there is the sale of 51 per cent of the team to Andrew Barroway, which — according to reports — is falling apart. Bettman reiterated Tuesday that the sale was on track. "All of the parties are interested in moving it along as quickly as they can, as are we," he said. "But we have a process that we go through, and we have to check all the boxes." In order to expand, the NHL has to check a bunch of boxes, beginning with healthy business and 30 stable franchises. Daly said the Panthers and Coyotes were "100 per cent" stable.Of course if that changes in the coming years, it wouldn't hurt to have one or two places thirsting for a team, like Montreal is right now in baseball. That could include Toronto getting a second team, something Daly said the Maple Leafs could not block. "There's no single veto right by any club in the league," Daly said. "It's just a voting requirement." Beyond Las Vegas, Florida and Arizona, Bettman on Tuesday discussed the upcoming World Cup of Hockey and what next season's outdoor games schedule could look like. Bettman also gave the board of governors an update on World Cup negotiations, which he called a work in progress. With the tournament likely to take place in Toronto in September 2016, he hopes to have an announcement within a couple of months. A more robust schedule of outdoor games could return next season, with Bettman estimating that there will be three or four. There are only two games this season — the Winter Classic in Washington and Stadium Series game in Santa Clara, Calif. — after six last year. Bettman said the interest in hosting an outdoor game has been "overwhelming. Everybody wants one." The Winnipeg Free Press reported last year that the Jets were in line to have one, while the Avalanche, Wild and Bruins are considered possibilities.
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Post by calgaryflames on Dec 10, 2014 12:51:23 GMT -6
K first and foremost, if mods think this is in the wrong section feel free to move it. Just wondering what you guys think would be a good name for a Vegas team? Would like to hear your ideas. I got one, name them the Quebec Nordiques! Ha, all jokes aside, I have a couple of names to start the thread off:
Las Vegas Jacks Las Vegas Spades Las Vegas Aces
Share your thoughts. I personally feel the Vegas Jacks has a nice ring to it. Could potentially come up with a nice logo as well with a Jack from a deck of cards (or some variation of).
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