Carolina relocating?

[mikecubs]

PNC Arena upgrades proposed

by Editors on October 27, 2015 in Basketball, College, Hockey, NHL
Proposed PNC Arena upgrades

We could see PNC Arena upgrades in the future, as consultant Ratio360 has proposed several renovation plans to the Centennial Authority Board, which maintains the home of the Carolina Hurricanes (NHL) and North Carolina State Wolfpack.

Proposed PNC Arena upgrades

The arena’s exterior would be altered and expanded, with widened concourses on the north and south sides of PNC Arena, with less dramatic changes to the east and west sides of the arena. Most of the fan enhancements would occur on the south side of the arena, with the addition of a new rooftop bar and restaurant, an expanded entryway, more retail space, and an additional meeting space. The north side of the arena would be expanded with a new game-day staff entrance and more.

Proposed PNC Arena upgrades

There is no cost estimate yet for the upgrades; any final price tag will depend on the extent of the changes.

arenadigest.com/2015/10/27/pnc-arena-upgrades-proposed/

[Bruinsfan]

that is not necessarily meaning the hurricanes stay. Locking into a bball only arena would add more room for amenities.

[mikecubs]

True but I really do think they are staying. I don't think the team is enough of a money loser to move. They were able to find local minority owners a few years ago with a worse CBA agreement. I don't think the NHL will allow Peter K. to move the team just because he can't get his $400M from local buyers. They are going to keep that expansion money from Quebec for themselves.

[wolfmannick]

^ Yeah I've never really heard that they were bleeding money as badly as the Coyotes or Panthers lately. But their owner must be getting up there, when the time comes that the team goes up for sale the only way i see them ever moving is if no one steps up to own the team

[mikecubs]

The problem is if you are a relocationist is someone will step up. The last time under the old more player friendly CBA people did step up to buy minority shares. When a sports team relocates it's for 2 reasons.

1. You can't get a new facility
2. You have a new(ish) facility but your market sucks so bad/there is such a lack of interest that you are hemorrhaging money and no one wants to own a team in that market(Atlanta-NHL, Vancouver-NBA)

Carolina doesn't fit any of these categories I don't think. There not going to let a team with a lease relocate because you can't get the sale price you want.

[Bruinsfan]

Karmonos may be able to get a few hulsizers to take a major minority stake as well. Guys who want to be "major league owners"


The NHl has a major problem with their thoughts on hedge funds and investment guys as owners..they dont make good owners.

[wolfmannick]

^ They're what the NHL wants. They all own go- nowhere teams in crappy sunbelt markets and are willing to hold there for 3-5 years. Buys time for another guy to step forward for a while. NHL's solution to the sunbelt problem... band aids, lots and lots of band aids

[mikecubs]

NHL commissioner says Carolina Hurricanes in Triangle to stay

NHL commissioner Gary Bettman has an answer for those who believe the Carolina Hurricanes might be relocated once owner Peter Karmanos Jr. sells his majority share in the team.

“I don’t think anyone needs to worry about the future of the franchise in Carolina,” Bettman said in an interview. “Peter is exploring his options, but there is no rush, no pressure, no timetable. I am certain if he sells the franchise, he will continue the legacy of having the franchise in what has been a strong market and keep it where it is.

“People should not be concerned about something fueled by media in other locations. Everything Peter is doing is being done to ensure the long-term future of hockey in the Triangle. That’s where the league believes it should be and where it will be.”

Bettman quickly added, “Is that a strong enough statement?”

Still, the speculation persists. The Canes, 2-4 in home games, are last in the NHL in home attendance at 11,411 after finishing one spot higher at 29th last season.

The Canes’ season opener against the Detroit Red Wings had a standing-room-only crowd of 18,949, setting a single-game gross revenue record for the franchise. The largest crowd in the past five home games has been 10,901 on Oct. 13 against the Florida Panthers. The Nov. 1 game against the Tampa Bay Lightning had an announced crowd of 9,081.

Ownership groups in Las Vegas and Quebec City are hopeful of being approved for an NHL expansion franchise. The fear among some Canes fans is that if either is shut out in their expansion bid, the ownership group could look elsewhere for a team that’s for sale and try to convince the league to be allowed to relocate it.

The Hurricanes were once the Hartford Whalers before Karmanos moved the team to North Carolina in 1997. The Atlanta Thrashers were sold and relocated to Winnipeg in 2011.

‘A great market’

Karmanos, 72, continues to say he is looking into a “succession plan” to sell the team but said it could be over a period of years. He noted the Hurricanes’ lease with PNC Arena runs through 2024 and said the Triangle continues to grow.

“I’m befuddled by the rumors the team will move,” Karmanos said in an interview. “It’s a great market. The fans are still supportive. When you give them a Grade A product, they will respond.”

The Hurricanes have reached the Stanley Cup playoffs just once, in 2009, since winning the 2006 Stanley Cup. The past six years have been frustrating for Karmanos, who has since made several front-office changes, and tested the staying power of Canes’ fans.

Don Waddell, hired last year as team president, said the smaller turnouts this season again are a result of focusing on season-ticket sales while reducing complimentary and discounted tickets. The Hurricanes used that strategy last season, when their average attendance dipped to 12,594.

The decline is reflected in the annual financial reports the Hurricanes – through their parent company, Gale Force Holdings – submit to the Centennial Authority that oversees the operation of the arena.

The Hurricanes’ admission revenue for 2014-15 declined about $1.3 million from the 2013-2014 season. Food and beverage sales were down about $500,000, parking revenue down $600,000 and suite income fell by $400,000. In addition, advertising revenue also dropped $1.7 million.

That was offset by an increase in NHL revenue – $43.25 million last season, compared with about $40 million in 2013-2014. The Canes’ total hockey revenue was roughly $96 million, a dip from $97.5 million in 2013-14.

Asked to assess the financial health of the franchise, Waddell said, “I think it’s much better. As I said when I got here, this isn’t a sprint; it’s a marathon. We’re making progress. Is the progress as quick as everybody would like to see? Certainly not, but I’m not surprised by it. … With this franchise, it’s always going to be a battle.”

Lowest ticket prices in NHL

Waddell said corporate sponsorships should increase about 10 percent this season. But his top priority, he said, is increasing attendance.

“We’ve got to put people in the seats,” he said. “That’s the No. 1 revenue source that we’re not maximizing or getting close to it.”

Waddell said the team, in trying to place more of a premium on season tickets, reduced complimentary tickets by 50 percent last season. An additional 60 percent cut in “comps” is being made this season, he said.

“So the numbers in the building don’t surprise me at all,” Waddell said. “We know there’s going to be nights where it’s tough.”

Waddell has added 36 sales people this year. The Canes’ median ticket price – $62 – remains among the lowest in the NHL.

Waddell has said the Canes’ season-ticket base, including equivalents, is about 8,000. N.C. State, which shares PNC Arena with the Hurricanes, has sold 11,251 season tickets for the 2015-16 season, an NCSU official said.

Canes captain Eric Staal and his teammates have noticed the smaller crowds.

“There’s no question it’s better when it’s a full building and good atmosphere,” Staal said. “Obviously with what’s gone on here the last few years and missing the playoffs and not winning as many games, it’s tough sledding as far as getting the fans in the building as often as in the past.

“We’ve got to build that back up and continue to get better as a team and win games. If we do that, the hockey fans are here. The hope is to win games and build that excitement back up, and before long we’ll be back filling the house again.”

HOME ATTENDANCE
Carolina Hurricanes’ average home attendance and NHL ranking since winning the Stanley Cup in 2006.

2006-07: 17,386 (15th)

2007-08: 16,633 (20th)

2008-09: 16,572 (20th)

2009-10: 15,240 (23rd)

2010-11: 16,415 (20th)

2011-12: 16,042 (22nd)

2012-13: 17,553 (17th)*

2013-14: 15,483 (23rd)

2014-15: 12,594 (29th)

* Lockout season, 24 home games

www.newsobserver.com/sports/nhl/carolina-hurricanes/article44283009.html

[mikecubs]

Given the growth rate of Raleigh(one of the fastest in either Canada or the US), no other teams, lots of hidden population within an hour drive NOT counted in the combined statistical area, the fact that last time the team sold minority shares local investors DID by them, the fact that there is talk of a major arena renovation I just don't see a move. I think Carolina is more along the likes of a Nashville, Anaheim and Tampa rather than a Arizona/Florida. Most of this relocation talk I think is BS from Quebec fans.

I really think Carolina can do a lot better once Karmanos sells/dies and reach a Tampa/Nashville type level.

[Bruinsfan]

Karmanos cant be trusted and no i dont think Raleigh is worth keeping in the least bit.

The relocation talk is an owner looking to sell anda team doing very poorly.

Im not sure why the nhl insists on these markets that have potential to either have low capacity at normal ticket price or a high capacity at a awful ticket price, i know oyu say market share but Carolina really? Thats college sports land (so is most of the sunbelt) yet the NHL has the delusion its going to bring them a tv deal. it jus isnt going to happen. The TV deal will be grabbed from NY Boston, Detroit, and LA that is the only selling point of the league to american tv.

[mikecubs]

If Carolina put up the same metrics(not quite moveable but a lot better than Gledale/Sunrise) and they were in a rust belt you'd be willing to do ANYTHING to keep them.

Karmanos is a snake and has no soul as you say. But they aren't moving. The entire thing came from Quebec because they want a team. Carolina isn't comparable to Glendale. They have much better metrics attendance wise/leaked gate date wise/past forbes data. In the past with a worst CBA-pre Canadian TV deal people still bought minority shares. Unlike Glendale the arena draws well for concerts. People forget a lot it just isn't hockey in Glendale that is a failure it's EVERYTHING that fails. That's why no one wants to own them without massive help.

The reason the NHL insists these markets have potential is because markets can improve. NOTHING is frozen in time. In baseball we'd only have 1 west coast team with that attitude. Every single team that started out on the west coast had HORRIFYING attendance for many years other than the Dodgers. If you had only the Dodgers MLB would be missing billions of dollars.

In the NHL we would have given up on LA due to 30 years of mostly horrible attendance at the Forum. The only time they ever drew was with Wayne. If we had this forum in the early 80s everyone would be saying there is 0 chance this can work. You are CRAZY if you think they will ever be a top 10-12 franchise. San Jose would have NEVER gotten a second crack since they only lasted 1 year in the 70's. Nashville drew god awful and was almost moved to Hamilton and they have improved a lot since then. Same with Tampa. For the record they should take out Sunrise and Glendale. There's a difference to keep a struggling but surviving team that is improving gradually versus a dead market that needs illegal arena deals/extra subsidies other than arena costs. Here is something else to keep in mind. If that idiot Bettman would have done the right thing in the early 2000s and realized Phoenix wasn't big enough for 4 teams and that to top it off a suburban arena would make things worst he could have called Leslie Alexander and offered him the Coyotes. Alexander was interested in the NHL until 2005 by most accounts. We'd have 4 thriving sun belts right now plus an improving Tampa/Nashville/Anaheim.

NHL isn't going to get the big TV deal off the markets you just listed(and Philly too). The NHL's sunbelt experiment has payed off somewhat. The 200M is far and away anything more than they ever had and if you redid the deal today the NHL would probably get 400-500M dollars per year. That idiot Bettman screwed up badly signing such a long deal.

Here is my reasoning for keeping Carolina and why I think there is hope besides them not being the Coyotes/Panthers. Of every combined statistical area over 1M in the US or Canada Raleigh is the 7th fastest growing area % wise.

As of July 1 2014 Raleigh CSA is 2,075,126. If Raleigh keeps its current growth rate here is what future populations look like.

2020-2,353,830
2025-2,614,472
2030-2,903,975
2035-3,225,535
2040-3,582,702
2045-3,979,418
2050-4,328,194

Something else to keep in mind. There's a lot of hidden areas within 65 miles drive not counted. Here is what is not counted

City-(population)-miles
Wilson, NC µSA (81,401) 50.38
Goldsboro, NC MSA (124,456) 53.35
Burlington, NC MSA (155,792) 56.77
Rocky Mount, NC MSA (149,290) 59.34
Fayetteville,NC MSA (377,939) 64.4

That's an extra 888,878. Add that to the numbers above.

Here is the best reason not to leave. Due to territory rights the NFL and NBA aren't ever coming. If MLB ever came to North Carolina they'd pick Charlotte since Charlotte is bigger and has a lot more corporations. Raleigh is a very rare thing. A city that will probably be huge some day but never have any pro competition for sports. Name another situation like that anywhere. Unless the Canes start outright hemorrhaging(ala Glendale) it's not a good idea to move them. There's a lot of potential here minus Karmanos/future years with more people.

[mikecubs]

Here is a blast from the past. Leaked gate data

Hurricanes
06-07- $28.7M(tied for 18th/19th)
07-08- $28.7M(21st)
10-11- $27.06( tied for 21st/23rd)

Coyotes
06-07-$22.55M(tied for 23rd/24th)
07-08- $18.45(30th)
10-11- $17.22(29th)

Panthers
06-07-$20.5M(tied for 25th-28th)
07-08-$20.5M (28th-29th)
10-11-$18.86(26th)

Thrashers
06-07-$20.5M(tied for 25th-28th)
07-08-$22.5M(tied for 25th-27th)
10-11-$13.53(30th)

St. Louis

06-07-$18.45M(29th)
07-08-$24.6M(tied for 23rd-24th)
10-11-$26.65M(24th)

[mikecubs]

Don't agree with Karmanos comments on Quebec(they did draw well and it's a better market than Raleigh) but this doesn't sound like a man moving.

Snip

He started by saying "that every time something happens, there is one guy in this room, I don't know who it is", (and he looked around from person to person), "who says that the franchise will move. I hate that! It drives me crazy! We would be idiots to move! We have a long term lease in one of the best buildings in the league, with one of the best deals in the league."

Karmanos continued about how they did a long study and chose this location to move from Hartford because it was a fast growing area, it had no other professional sports, and nothing has changed from that. "This is still a fast growing market, one of the fastest growing in the league."

He looked around the room and asked us all, if he was going to move the team, where would he move it? One person said, "Quebec". He responded that if Quebec was such a great market, why did their team move to Colorado? He said it was a small market and didn't draw well.

Another person answered "Vegas".

Karmanos said that if someone wanted to move the team to Vegas, they would have to pay the NHL a $500 million dollar expansion fee. "It's not going to happen. There is not a better market to move to."

Next, he spoke about the Detroit and Chicago markets and mentioned that when they were less successful, they could not draw fans. He said that winning draws fans, losing does not. "It's like that everywhere in the league and everyone knows it."

"They called Detroit the "Dead Things" because they went years and years not making the playoffs in a six or ten team league! You could shoot a cannon off in Joe Louis and not hit anyone! A few years ago, in Chicago you couldn't get 3,000 fans in that arena. Now, three Cups later, they sell out every game. If we would have won two more Cups after our win, we would be selling out every game too."

Karmanos said that there are good fans here and the market is good. Quite simply, if they win more games, more fans will come.

Again, he reiterated that the team is not moving anywhere. The topic is never even discussed. He also closed out by saying that he would not sell the team to anyone who wanted to move it either.

It was another interesting press conference by Peter Karmanos.

www.canescountry.com/2015/7/2/8882109/peter-karmanos-addresses-raleigh-media

[Bruinsfan]

IF there isnt a real winter, there really is very little potential if you are not a super market like Dallas and LA.

You and your hatred of rustbelts i didnt even bring them up. I dont want kroenke to get LA because he is a dink who participated in the removal of a team from LA to begin with. he doesnt deserve the city.


I dont read what that snake says. He is just that...a snake. No soul. Will move any team for a buck...thats why the hurricanes always have the potential to move and 125% of the team worth could do that.

[mikecubs]

How are Nashville/Tampa growing then? Nashville was profitable slightly according to Forbes, Tampa is getting very close with a 1B dollar development coming around their rink. You are correct LA, Bay Area and Dallas are super markets and for 100% sure Carolina, TB, Nashville will never be close to them. But Tampa/Nashville are starting to get to a decent point. Carolina if growth % holds won't ever be as big as LA, Dallas but it will be a decent size with no other competition. If we do what you want and remove every sun belt excluding the Kings/Stars/Sharks we'd be down to only 17 NHL teams in the US with the possibility of adding Seattle IF they ever get it together. You aren't getting a big TV deal with only 17-18 US teams with major markets missing and 3 teams in 1 market. NHL will be doomed as a nitch sport. Where are you going to go to get beyond 17-18 teams? I also have to ask if you are going to fold teams like Nashville/Tampa/Anaheim how is it fair to keep Buffalo/St. Louis going since they have similar metrics? Don't you have to fold/move them too out of fairness?

I don't think Karmanos would go as far as calling himself an idiot if he moved the team if he planned to do that. Sure he'd deny deny until the sale but that's awfully strong. Besides it's not up to Karmanos to move the team. I think he's smart enough to know better markets(Quebec) will be saved for teams that truly need it(Arizona) or expansion. It's up to the NHL. They aren't going to give up Quebec/Vegas expansion $$$ out of the goodness of their hearts just because Karmanos wants a goofy price for the team. If locals want it at a fair price they won't approve a move. NHL is already probably leaving one modern arena in Glendale for either another market or downtown. They aren't leaving another if that team isn't hemorrhaging money and the only problem is the owner is insane and thinks he's getting $400M(a New York Islanders price). If you let teams with modern arenas with leases move solely because another market is worth more even if the current market is viable that's the end of the arena subsidy business. Where would it stop? What if I owned the Winnipeg Jets who are doing great but I asked for a Toronto 2.0 price and couldn't get it in Winnipeg then moved the team to Toronto?

Here is the reason I mentioned rust belts and it has nothing to do with Kroenke/Rams

Forbes data since 06 on revenue

Carolina vs. St. Louis

06- $72M vs $66M
07- $68M vs $66M
08- $75M vs $73M
09- $82M vs $80M
10- $75M vs $79M
11- $81M vs $78M
12- $85M vs $89M
13- $71M vs $72M
14- $91M vs $98M
15- $99M vs $111M

Overall St Louis does win by $13M but still that's only an average of $1.3M per year over the last 10 years. The Blues a little more than 3 years ago sold for only $120M. Now in fairness that was old CBA/pre-Canadian TV deal. Still though the deal did include a share of the Peabody Opera house and an AHL team. Now if St. Louis was in the south and it didn't snow EVERYONE on here would be calling for a relocation due to the low sale price screaming about how bad the market sucked. Yet somehow I don't think you or anyone else on here will be calling for a relocation of the Blues. They get a pass.

For the record I don't want to move the Blues/Sabres either. I'm only in favor of getting rid of outright hopeless/money hemorrhaging situations(Glendale/Sunrise). Just trying to make the point of if you want go beyond folding teams that truly need it and want to take out other teams in the south then please be consistant and take out northern teams with similar metrics in places that aren't growing and don't have much upside either.