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Post by puckshmuck on Nov 11, 2015 11:40:52 GMT -6
So, for all of those that think Phoenix and Florida are bad enough, this will give you a good chuckle. Seriously??? -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- One has the feel of a nearly done deal, with its world-class arena almost finished and more than 13,000 season tickets sold. The other is an implausible dream, a long-term play that might generate some unexpected short-term revenue given the size of the market. But as odd as it sounds, Las Vegas and China fit with what Gary Bettman’s NHL has long been about: growing the game and growing hockey-related revenues while taking the chance that the sport can work in decidedly non-hockey locales. When Bettman met with a small group of reporters in Toronto on Monday morning, the two key topics were expansion and the Olympics. Expansion might appear to be the more pressing concern, given a new team (or teams) could begin play as early as the 2017-18 season, but the commissioner also explained the league also needs a decision on the Winter Games by about this time next year. That decision will be for NHLers to participate at the Winter Games in both 2018 (South Korea) and 2022 (China) Winter Games, or at neither of them – the International Ice Hockey Federation has little interest in switching back and forth. “They either want us in for both, or not,” Bettman said. Meanwhile, Vegas and Quebec City remain in the running to become the NHL’s 31st and 32nd teams for astronomical price tags, at least $500-million (U.S.) each. But Bettman insists the league is still considering the cities’ respective bids and that nothing will be announced imminently, even though there are rumours the NHL could make a big announcement in January at the all-star game in Nashville, Tenn. Vegas appeals to Bettman and the league’s governors for obvious reasons: There’s money there, from the casinos and snowbirds and sports-crazy locals who hunger for a major professional franchise in the city. And the league is interested in getting a bigger slice of the enormous fantasy and gaming market that has already buoyed NFL and NBA revenues. But like so many of the NHL’s forays into new markets in the United States the past 25 years, Vegas is far from a guaranteed success. And Bettman is cautioning governors that the last thing they need is a team that only draws from the league’s existing revenues – from televisions deals etc. – without helping to increase them. “Each team you add, there’s a diminution of the national revenue share that each club currently gets,” Bettman said. “It’s not [only] a windfall in the expansion payment – it’s just giving [the existing 30 owners] money that you’re giving up over time.” There are cautionary tales to that effect on Bettman’s resume. He was commissioner when the NHL added franchises in southern markets such as Texas, Arizona, North Carolina, Tennessee and Georgia in a seven-season span (1993-99). Now the Atlanta Thrashers are long gone but thriving – in the words of deputy commissioner Bill Daly on Monday – “beyond our wildest dreams” in Winnipeg. Of the others in that group of new teams, only the Dallas Stars are undeniably healthy. Even with the beautiful building, the season-ticket deposits and the novelty-factor appeal of a new team, Vegas is likely in for some hard years at the bottom of the revenue table. But that’s a bet Bettman has made before. And he currently has many struggling owners who are anxious to cash in on that initial expansion-fee windfall, long-term implications be damned. The more intriguing and less discussed play for the NHL is China. The league has been pleasantly surprised by the success of its broadcasting agreement with CCTV-5 – the country’s primary sports channel – which is now in its third year and includes the Stanley Cup final. The game is also making inroads in terms of participation there. The NHL has drafted its first Chinese player, Andong Song, who was picked by the New York Islanders last June. And if the NHL commits to the next two Winter Olympics, it will do so largely because the 2022 Winter Games are in Beijing. There are even rumours that the NHL hopes to play select games in China within the next few years. “It’s a very big country, and hockey right now has a very small place,” Bettman said. “This is an opportunity to jump-start the impact that our game has on the sporting life in China. “The question is, would the fact that the Winter Olympics is in Beijing give us an opportunity to make a real impression in China, where hockey is really in an embryonic state? That’s a discussion we have to have … That’s the question. I don’t know the answer.” He may not. But Bettman has never been afraid of venturing into uncharted territory – and hoping for the best. Source: www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/nhl/bettman-looks-to-china-as-the-nhl%e2%80%99s-next-big-bet/ar-CCaspb?ocid=spartandhp
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 11, 2015 13:17:00 GMT -6
This isn't a bad move and there is NOTHING to lose as long as the NHL isn't idiotic enough to put a team there. The NBA gets between 150-200M per year in China. Basketball is HUGE in China and hockey will never be anything like basketball in China but I don't think it's a bad thing to grow the game a bit in China. You will get a few bucks at least and China is Canada's number 1 immigrant sending country. It would really help Canada if a few of the people coming from China had exposure to hockey. MLB is going to try the same thing in the coming years and baseball is about the same place hockey is in China. The NFL did the same thing with London and that's worked out great so far.
There is nothing wrong with growing the game as long as you do it in a safe/sensible manner(No suburban arenas in non tradition markets or any market/don't let Atlanta Spirit own a team). If you only want white Canadians to play/watch the game will DIE because white Canadians are dying off. Canada's fertility rate is only 1.6(you need 2.1 too keep a stable population). That means every generation you lose 1/4th of white Canadians. Also notice how this article leaves out California in terms of growing the game in non traditional places?
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Post by puckshmuck on Nov 11, 2015 17:49:40 GMT -6
I never alluded to race with regards to this, so get off your soap-box and put the race card away.
And yes, I do believe Bettman is crazy enough to attempt to place teams there. If it ever gets to the point that the NHL puts teams in China to play against NA teams and people honestly think it makes logistical sense in the grand scheme of things, then they are out to lunch as well.
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Post by Bruinsfan on Nov 11, 2015 21:02:25 GMT -6
If i was to grow the game in an asian nation i would look to Korea and Japan as they do have winter areas of the countries and usually provide a decent amount of winter sports athletes. Also Korea has a strong skating culture.
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 11, 2015 22:33:45 GMT -6
I never alluded to race with regards to this, so get off your soap-box and put the race card away. And yes, I do believe Bettman is crazy enough to attempt to place teams there. If it ever gets to the point that the NHL puts teams in China to play against NA teams and people honestly think it makes logistical sense in the grand scheme of things, then they are out to lunch as well. I didn't imply you or other Canadians were racist and apologize if it came across as that way. But most Canadians/north hockey fans in general are protectionist when it comes to hockey and don't want it to grow beyond Canada/the north US. NBA promotes it self all over Asia/Europe/South America, Africa, the middle east. You don't hear NBA fans complain. NFL is promoting itself in foreign countries. Soon there will be 5 games in London and they are adding Germany, Brazil and Mexico soon. You don't hear NFL fans compain. MLB has played games in Puerto Rico, Mexico, Japan, Australia trying to grow the game and is going to attempt to grow the game in China. You don't hear MLB fans complain. MMA has had matches in Brazil(I don't follow but I think Rousey had her last fight there). I guess it's really growing in Brazil. Europe too. You don't hear MMA fans complain. Hockey is the only sport where fans complain about any attempt to grow their sport beyond Canada/Northern US. It's deep insecurity of the game getting away NOT racism. What I was trying to say was if you want the game to be protected and it to never grow beyond Canada/North US to other people the game is ****** long term because Canada is dying demographically and being replaced from people from China, India and the Philippines. That's why you have to get into those countries to train your "replacements". You don't want to get into a spot where you have boat loads of immigrants arriving and they never even heard of hockey. But ya if you go too far and actually put a team or teams in China it was be a disaster. Sadly you are probably correct about Bettman putting teams there. LOL He'll probably put them all in the suburbs too to top it off and make it even more of a disaster. He will find the Chinese Glendale and Sunrise.
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 11, 2015 22:36:15 GMT -6
If i was to grow the game in an asian nation i would look to Korea and Japan as they do have winter areas of the countries and usually provide a decent amount of winter sports athletes. Also Korea has a strong skating culture. Those are good ideas along with Philippines(Manila) and India too. Those are the top 3 sending countries to Canada. But absolutely no teams in these countries. Fund leagues/play areas/coaches/equipment.
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Post by phillymike on Nov 12, 2015 5:01:04 GMT -6
Game is fine as is, but nothing wrong in growing it globally.
I'm thinking the NHL, over the other 3 major sports is the most globally represented.
What percentage of MLB are American? What percentage of NFL are American? What percentage of NBA are American? What percentage of NHL is Canadian?
So while our "imports" are not from India/China/Phillipines, We are globally represented. Hold an NHL game in India/Phillipines? Not sure how much benefit the league would get out of that.
To suggest the league will die if not marketed to these markets is IMO ridiculous.
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Post by phillymike on Nov 12, 2015 9:11:22 GMT -6
Hockey is the only sport where fans complain about any attempt to grow their sport beyond Canada/Northern US. It's deep insecurity of the game getting away NOT racism. What I was trying to say was if you want the game to be protected and it to never grow beyond Canada/North US to other people the game is ****** long term because Canada is dying demographically and being replaced from people from China, India and the Philippines. That's why you have to get into those countries to train your "replacements". Way off base here, The reason it's not grown in the Phillipines/India/Brazil? Is because they are tropical climates, and are genuinely poor countries.(middle class wise). As for Hockey the only sport complaining about growing it globally; I know and have heard more NFL fans complaining about games outside of the USA. Baseball and basketball are fairly cheap, to play compared to hockey, Funding for children to play hockey in Hyderabad India is such a waste. I'll strongly disagree (and bite my tounge while doing so) with the statement Canada is "dying" demographically.
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 12, 2015 13:22:21 GMT -6
Game is fine as is, but nothing wrong in growing it globally. I'm thinking the NHL, over the other 3 major sports is the most globally represented. What percentage of MLB are American? What percentage of NFL are American? What percentage of NBA are American? What percentage of NHL is Canadian? So while our "imports" are not from India/China/Phillipines, We are globally represented. Hold an NHL game in India/Phillipines? Not sure how much benefit the league would get out of that. To suggest the league will die if not marketed to these markets is IMO ridiculous. I'm not talking about just players but future fans. Other than Europe(russia included) hockey really isn't played outside US/Canada. Most of Canada's immigration isn't from Europe. Europe itself is in demographic death spiral(1.4 fertility rate) Back in the 50's most Canada/US immigration was from Europe. The 1960's changed that. Here are Canada's top sending immigration countries. China, Philippines, India lead the way. www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2010/permanent/10.aspBy 2031 South Asians will make up 28% of Canada's minorities, Chinese will make up 21% www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-changing-face-of-canada-booming-minority-populations-by-2031/article569072/That's why you market in these countries. These countries are Canada's future people. Canada itself is growing overall yes. It will grow by 10M by 2050. But that's from immigration. If you closed the doors Canada would go into a demographic death spiral. It's simple math. Divide 1.6 by 2.1. If you shut the door today in the late 2020's Canada's population would start dropping. A dropping population of regular natives and being replaced by people from non-hockey countries is a risk for hockey very long term over several generations. That's why you need to be pro-active. I didn't say an actual pre-season game should be played in Phillapines. I said hockey rinks/coaches should be introduced in the big cities to build the sport. Once the sport grows have select games be broadcast on TV to build fans. If enough interest grows then ya play a game there. The benefit is hockey won't totally foreign to your future immigrants when the arrive to Canada. If all your future immigrants are growing up with NBA and no hockey that's not good at all. That means you have to try to convert everyone once they arrive to Canada. The reason you should also market in these countries is hockey is a great game. Yes you won't ever make in like basketball in these countries because basketball is cheap but you can put a dent into basketball instead of just sitting there and getting dominated. As far as players for these sports you have to look at countries outside both Canada and the US. You can't count the US as "foreign" since the north has always been part of the league. You also have to look at how many different countries are sending players not just the %. NHL's foreigners are all European. NBA is getting players from Europe, S. America, China, middle east even(Turkey, Iran, Israel). MLB is getting Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, Latin America. Football is basically American. Ranking the sports for international appeal I'd go 1. NBA/basketball 2. MLB/baseball 3. NHL/hockey 4. NFL/football(distant 4th) Other than soccer basketball is the 2nd biggest sport in the world. No sport gets the foreign revenue NBA gets either. What foreign countries are the NHL pulling in 150-200M per year? Baseball is very popular in latin american countries and some Asian countries(Japan/S. Korea). NFL is the least global of the 4 major sports but they are working on that.
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Post by Lions67 on Nov 12, 2015 13:27:01 GMT -6
You make sound all doom and gloom mike. IF Canada was to close its doors to immigration, and the population would be dying as you say it would, then there would be social programs to encourage larger families. I believe that wholeheartedly. I also believe that we let too many immigrants in this country as it is.
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 12, 2015 13:47:44 GMT -6
Hockey is the only sport where fans complain about any attempt to grow their sport beyond Canada/Northern US. It's deep insecurity of the game getting away NOT racism. What I was trying to say was if you want the game to be protected and it to never grow beyond Canada/North US to other people the game is ****** long term because Canada is dying demographically and being replaced from people from China, India and the Philippines. That's why you have to get into those countries to train your "replacements". Way off base here, The reason it's not grown in the Phillipines/India/Brazil? Is because they are tropical climates, and are genuinely poor countries.(middle class wise). As for Hockey the only sport complaining about growing it globally; I know and have heard more NFL fans complaining about games outside of the USA. Baseball and basketball are fairly cheap, to play compared to hockey, Funding for children to play hockey in Hyderabad India is such a waste. I'll strongly disagree (and bite my tounge while doing so) with the statement Canada is "dying" demographically. It's not growing in these countries because there are no rinks. Ya they are poor. That's why you fund rinks/equipment/coaches in the bigger cities. Carve out a market share. I'm sorry but I don't buy hockey can't be grown and can only be played in Canada/north US/Europe and can never be grown beyond that. It's a great game and if you push it you can carve out markets in other places. Look at how many kids in California are playing these days. Look at the success of the Kings/Sharks. If I took a time machine back to 1950-60 and told people what California would be today everyone would say no way you are freaking nuts.
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 12, 2015 13:57:45 GMT -6
You make sound all doom and gloom mike. IF Canada was to close its doors to immigration, and the population would be dying as you say it would, then there would be social programs to encourage larger families. I believe that wholeheartedly. I also believe that we let too many immigrants in this country as it is. Don't think social programs would work to raise the birth rate. European countries/Russia and Japan have tried this and it hasn't worked much. They only get a slight uptick in birth rate. The entire developed world has an awful fertility rate. www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127rank.htmlThe feminist movement has destroyed the birth rate. People just don't want kids these days. Kids are work and require self sacrifice, something the last 2 generations don't have in them. I'd love it if we went back to 1950's type values but the genie is out of the bottle I 1000% agree with you on letting in too many immigrants. Both the US and Canada let in too many. They should just let in enough to keep a constant population not have major population growth and be MUCH more selective of WHO they let in. They should only let in people who want to work and not be a drain on the system, who learn the language and WANT to be part of the US or Canada and respect the values/traditions of them.
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Post by Bruinsfan on Nov 12, 2015 17:30:53 GMT -6
the thing with expanding games into korea would be to capture the skating culture their and translate it to hockey. They are a short track behemoth.
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Post by puckshmuck on Nov 12, 2015 18:25:40 GMT -6
Game is fine as is, but nothing wrong in growing it globally. I'm thinking the NHL, over the other 3 major sports is the most globally represented. What percentage of MLB are American? What percentage of NFL are American? What percentage of NBA are American? What percentage of NHL is Canadian? So while our "imports" are not from India/China/Phillipines, We are globally represented. Hold an NHL game in India/Phillipines? Not sure how much benefit the league would get out of that. To suggest the league will die if not marketed to these markets is IMO ridiculous. I'm not talking about just players but future fans. Other than Europe(russia included) hockey really isn't played outside US/Canada. Most of Canada's immigration isn't from Europe. Europe itself is in demographic death spiral(1.4 fertility rate) Back in the 50's most Canada/US immigration was from Europe. The 1960's changed that. Here are Canada's top sending immigration countries. China, Philippines, India lead the way. www.cic.gc.ca/english/resources/statistics/facts2010/permanent/10.aspBy 2031 South Asians will make up 28% of Canada's minorities, Chinese will make up 21% www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/the-changing-face-of-canada-booming-minority-populations-by-2031/article569072/That's why you market in these countries. These countries are Canada's future people. Canada itself is growing overall yes. It will grow by 10M by 2050. But that's from immigration. If you closed the doors Canada would go into a demographic death spiral. It's simple math. Divide 1.6 by 2.1. If you shut the door today in the late 2020's Canada's population would start dropping. A dropping population of regular natives and being replaced by people from non-hockey countries is a risk for hockey very long term over several generations. That's why you need to be pro-active. I didn't say an actual pre-season game should be played in Phillapines. I said hockey rinks/coaches should be introduced in the big cities to build the sport. Once the sport grows have select games be broadcast on TV to build fans. If enough interest grows then ya play a game there. The benefit is hockey won't totally foreign to your future immigrants when the arrive to Canada. If all your future immigrants are growing up with NBA and no hockey that's not good at all. That means you have to try to convert everyone once they arrive to Canada. The reason you should also market in these countries is hockey is a great game. Yes you won't ever make in like basketball in these countries because basketball is cheap but you can put a dent into basketball instead of just sitting there and getting dominated. As far as players for these sports you have to look at countries outside both Canada and the US. You can't count the US as "foreign" since the north has always been part of the league. You also have to look at how many different countries are sending players not just the %. NHL's foreigners are all European. NBA is getting players from Europe, S. America, China, middle east even(Turkey, Iran, Israel). MLB is getting Japan, S. Korea, Taiwan, Latin America. Football is basically American. Ranking the sports for international appeal I'd go 1. NBA/basketball 2. MLB/baseball 3. NHL/hockey 4. NFL/football(distant 4th) Other than soccer basketball is the 2nd biggest sport in the world. No sport gets the foreign revenue NBA gets either. What foreign countries are the NHL pulling in 150-200M per year? Baseball is very popular in latin american countries and some Asian countries(Japan/S. Korea). NFL is the least global of the 4 major sports but they are working on that. Okay no worries. It appeared as though you were accusing me of being racist and that got my dander up. It's all good
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Post by mikecubs on Nov 29, 2015 8:16:53 GMT -6
Is hockey growing in China?Ice hockey is growing in China, fast – and with Beijing and Zhangjiakou having recently secured the rights to host the 2022 Winter Olympics, it’s only going to get bigger still. We met up with China-based Canadian hockey coach Mark Simon to get the lowdown on the sport’s development. How did you get involved in hockey in China? I came over here from Canada in 2006 just to teach English for a year – I had no idea that people played hockey in China. But, then about a year in, I discovered a men’s league in Beijing, and through that I got connected to one of the local kid’s clubs –called the Imperial Guard – where I began coaching. I realized there was a gap in the market for someone like me – someone from a hockey background, someone passionate about the sport – who wanted to help promote hockey and coach in China. So, I stopped teaching English and just put everything into hockey. Today I run hockey training camps all over Asia, promoting the game, helping to organize tournaments and of course, coach wherever possible. So it’s safe to say you’ve always loved hockey? Oh yeah! It’s been my life since I first started playing around four or five years old. I continued playing through high school at quite a high level until I was around 19 when I realized I wasn’t going to become professional. After that I played mainly for fun. Who’s your team? The Montreal Canadians. I was born in Montreal, and that’s where I spent most of my childhood. Comparatively, how popular is hockey in China right now? There’s about 2,000 kids playing hockey in Beijing. It’s growing a lot, in line with all the new ice rinks being built. The first kids league was started in 2008, with just four teams – of which ours was one – and that developed into four divisions of different age groups and lots of kids. Shanghai, meanwhile, is roughly five years behind Beijing in terms of development, mostly due to its more southern – and hotter – location. So what’s next for you? I’m just finalizing a new role with a company called champion rinks, who have about 25 rinks around China in different cities. Their flagship rink is in Joy City Mall, which is where I held a recent tournament this summer. The plan is to start doing a lot tournaments, in addition to the current camps in China and other places like Thailand, as well as the liaising, consulting and coaching. How much of an improvement has taken place since 2006? Numbers wise, it’s great – it’s gone from a few hundred to a few thousand kids playing regularly in Beijing. It’s really good to see so many kids out there each week. The disappointing part for me, is that playing lives tend to be limited to five years for most kids. What that means, is that most kids will start at around six years old, play like crazy for about five years, and then slowly give up. Unfortunately, despite the massive enthusiasm on a grass roots level, there’s not yet a real player development infrastructure in place. And so once these kids reach 12 or 13, there’s nowhere for them to go. There’s no leagues for kids aged 13 and up. In addition, there’s no single unified league structure. Right now, the system is incredibly fragmented. There’ so many competing leagues and teams across China, that it’s impossible to determine the very best players – or create an all star team. Which is what you need ultimately, if the sport is going to develop at a higher level in China. What affect do you see the Winter Olympics having on the sport? The growth has never been an issue and I think there’s no doubt the Olympics will help to further stimulate that growth. I truly hope from an infrastructure perspective it has an affect too. There’s a kid from Beijing who was recently drafted into the NHL [US National Hockey League]. He left Beijing when he was 10 and moved to Toronto, so he’s not a direct product of China’s hockey scene – but he has the potential to be its superstar, it’s Yao Ming. I hope these things will make everyone ask how can China mirror the Canadian structure here. Now, I’m not saying you can just airlift a program from one country to another. Lots of cultural adjustments will need to be made. But the relevant sporting authorities here need to create a system whereby kids – especially teenage kids – can play a Triple A level [highest standard] of hockey. I think there’s opportunities to make that happen and I’d love to be a part of that discussion. www.thatsmags.com/beijing/post/11282/is-hockey-growing-in-china
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