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Post by mikecubs on Feb 11, 2018 18:51:02 GMT -6
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 11, 2018 18:58:11 GMT -6
Besides losing out on a great gate/helping Canadian TV partners by having a 8th team the NHL is losing out on a great/cool/beautiful city that would help the overall brand!!!! One of the coolest things about the NBA is the smaller size one team cities(not Quebec City size small) like Portland and Salt Lake City that are absolutely stunningly beautiful(and have great fans bases like Quebec). Portland^^^ ^^Salt Lake City Too bad the NHL is a poorly run minor league sport(if even that) can't see the same value in Quebec City.
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Post by phillymike on Feb 11, 2018 20:23:03 GMT -6
Too bad the NHL is a poorly run minor league sport(if even that). . Dramatic much?
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 12, 2018 7:39:32 GMT -6
Too bad the NHL is a poorly run minor league sport(if even that). . Dramatic much? Not that much. Maybe I should have said quasi major league on the way to minor league status. The sport is in a geographic civil war and has been since the 90's. The Coyotes are looking to build their 3rd arena in a horrible market and the commissioner is 100% in favor. The Islanders are doing the same in SUBURBAN long island. The NHL is about to go into a renovated basketball arena in Seattle with no mass transit. Building remote arenas is still considered one of the highest honors in the NHL even though none has ever worked. Anthony LeBlanc and John Spanos once owned NHL teams. LOL There is no Quebec or Houston. The population that supports hockey(white people) is in free fall demographically on both sides of the boarder. Long term to be any where close to where the NHL is even now a hell of a lot of people(minorities) are going to have to take up the game that don't have a history with the game. Then factor in the head injuries. While hockey is no where close to football it is a contact sport. With all of this going on the last thing the NHL needs is the geographic civil war/poor market placement. No good market should ever be turned away because of spite. The civil war needs to end hockey has more than enough challenges without shooting itself in the foot! The NHL is BADLY lagging behind the other 3 sports franchise value/revenue wise. Average franchise value NFL- $2.52B NBA- $1.65B MLB- $1.54B(This is a year old the latest values are not out until April) NHL- $594.35M MLS(low level minor league soccer)- $222.9M The US is so bad at soccer we lost to Trinidad and Tobaggo and island of 300,000 something and we won't be going to the world cup!!! LOL Worst yet from my understanding is some of our "better" players that went to Europe came back to help the US and we still lost.
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Post by phillymike on Feb 12, 2018 13:02:38 GMT -6
Not that much. Maybe I should have said quasi major league on the way to minor league status. The sport is in a geographic civil war and has been since the 90's. The Coyotes are looking to build their 3rd arena in a horrible market and the commissioner is 100% in favor. The Islanders are doing the same in SUBURBAN long island. The NHL is about to go into a renovated basketball arena in Seattle with no mass transit. Building remote arenas is still considered one of the highest honors in the NHL even though none has ever worked. Anthony LeBlanc and John Spanos once owned NHL teams. LOL There is no Quebec or Houston. The population that supports hockey(white people) is in free fall demographically on both sides of the boarder. Long term to be any where close to where the NHL is even now a hell of a lot of people(minorities) are going to have to take up the game that don't have a history with the game. Then factor in the head injuries. While hockey is no where close to football it is a contact sport. With all of this going on the last thing the NHL needs is the geographic civil war/poor market placement. No good market should ever be turned away because of spite. The civil war needs to end hockey has more than enough challenges without shooting itself in the foot! The NHL is BADLY lagging behind the other 3 sports franchise value/revenue wise. Average franchise value NFL- $2.52B NBA- $1.65B MLB- $1.54B(This is a year old the latest values are not out until April) NHL- $594.35M MLS(low level minor league soccer)- $222.9M The US is so bad at soccer we lost to Trinidad and Tobaggo and island of 300,000 something and we won't be going to the world cup!!! LOL Worst yet from my understanding is some of our "better" players that went to Europe came back to help the US and we still lost. The thing you are leaving out is hockey is a predomantly Canadian game, and an expensive one at that. Of course it will be the # 4 team sport out of the 4 MAJOR Canadian/American leagues. Does the NHL make blunders? Yes it does. Do these blunders make it a “quasi major league on its way to minor”🙄. No. It’s a league that is doing fine, with all the odds stacked against it when it comes to the challenges it faces for that all mighty American dollar. Recall the past: Anihiem was going to be a disaster, San Jose was going to be a disaster, Nashville/Pittsburg/Dallas/Philadelphia/St.Louis all were at one time viewed as “it’ll never work”. NFL/MLB/NBA, all have the luxury of a kid seeing a game and immediately going to their back yard and fantasizing of playing that game with some friends. NHL... not so much, so truely, the NHL is doing pretty good with the attendance they get in the markets that don’t see any outdoor playing ice ever. Actually I think as a league they are doing pretty fantastic with the hand they are dealt. I read most of your posts, and they do give me different/new/unknowing respectives, and I appreaciate that. The Winnipeg Jets, are part of the National Hockey League. Calling the NHL a “quasi major league on its way to a minor league” I find distastefull/unthoughtout/and a bit narcissistic. We are not the NFL/MLB/NBA. So really it’s apples/oranges. I should add that all this above IMPO. Which I think you should start all your posts with. On that note. How’s about those E-A-G-L-E-S! 🦅SUPERBOWL CHAMPS!!!! Finally!!
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 13, 2018 1:37:15 GMT -6
Ok you make a GREAT GREAT point on hockey being at a disadvantage and comparing apples/oranges. A better way to look at it is looking at what the ceiling of the sport is how close the sport comes to that ceiling. Baseball has a stat for players WAR(Wins above replacement) maybe a stat like VORC(value above replacement commissioner) is needed. Yes matter no what the NHL/hockey would be the 4th sport but there is a much higher level it can go(as long as head injuries don't kill it). EVERYTHING can't be blamed on access/expense/not playing in the back yard. That's an excuse for the geographic civil war. NFL,NBA,MLB don't have anything similar to a Quebec. If those sports aren't in a city with enough interest it's because of facility issues(see Seattle NBA or San Diego NFL). The NHL by far leaves the most $$$ on the table due to poor market placement/keeping bad markets/having bizarre arena locations. Calling the NHL quasi major league is a the highest COMPLEMENT to the Jets and Winnipeg I can give because the NHL did NOT want Winnipeg and were forced into it. Atlanta was outright kicked out and at that time there were no other options. Now we have a similar Canadian market that built a better arena than Winnipeg and made the team owner pay 0% for the arena. Plus that team has the advantage of having a post Texas Rangers local TV deal. The Jets came back right before local TV rights exploded in all sports. Something is DEEPLY wrong with a league that wouldn't want to recreate what happened in Winnipeg only likely at a little higher level due to circumstances/timing. Hockey absolutely could be major league but ONLY if the civil war ended and market placement wasn't dictated on north/south and who was goring who's ox. I totally agree with you on there being some southern successes. You forgot the best one of all the LA Kings!!! If it was up to northern fans and you left them outright vote on market placement there would be no south teams!!!! Again that's why I say quasi-major league. Even if every southern team was a 100% success it's still no reason to leave Quebec blank. None of the places you listed are comparable to Phoenix/Florida/NYI. Philly was selling out by year 7. www.hockeydb.com/nhl-attendance/att_graph.php?tmi=7439San Jose did well from the beginning. Dallas had 2 bad attendance years in their who history(when Hicks went bankrupt), Nashville sucked for a long time but they had the tools to turn it around(a downtown arena/only competition from a once a week sport), St. Louis was a money loser their whole history but they didn't lose at Coyote levels most of the time and the Rams leaving bailed them out. No one is leaving to help the Isles/Coyotes/Panthers. I've been on record that I think Carolina can turn it around too with the new ownership(Karmanos sucks). It's not narcissistic to want the best hockey/go to another gear. It's not the 1st sport to be miss run at some point. Baseball destroyed most of their classical parks(save Fenway and Wrigley) and built ugly cookie cutter parks. Was Larry Lachinno a narcissist for coming up with the retro park idea and wanting much better for baseball? What if everyone had to pretend everything was fine in the late 80's early 90's? Baseball would be a nitch sport or dead. We lost the Expos in large part because of the cookie cutter idea and nearly lost San Francisco, Houston, San Diego, Minnesota, White Sox, Seattle etc... They also had endless amounts of work stoppages. Players and owners learned how to work together and quit the work stoppages. In the late 70's the NBA finals was on tape delay(LOL) because most of their players were hard core drug addicts. Many didn't show up for games. David Stern cleaned it up and focused on promoting stars(the Magic/Bird) rivalry. Was he a narcissist for not accepting the status quo? Recently the NBA's had trouble with players leaving their original team after 8 years and going to large markets ruining competitive balance(Kevin Durant-Warriors). Was Adam Silver a narcissist for coming up with the designated player exception(allowing the original team to pay more) to prevent this? I respect the hell out of the NHL players and the skill level they have. They are totally major league. I take NOTHING away from them. Absolute great athletes. The league office and fans with their civil war are minor league. That's why I say quasi-major league. Congrats on the Eagles win!!!!! Amazing Foles beat Brady!!
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Post by phillymike on Feb 13, 2018 2:42:10 GMT -6
This is just a thought, perhaps the NHL simply does not care for the potential owner/owners?
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 13, 2018 5:39:59 GMT -6
I don't think it's that. If it was solely an ownership issue the NHL could have let the politicians know when they were debating the arena do not give Quebecor the exclusive arena contract to arena.
Besides civil war other possibilities are Montreal is blocking them behind the scene out of greed and Jeremy Jacobs don't want them.
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Post by phillymike on Feb 13, 2018 10:17:37 GMT -6
I don't think it's that. If it was solely an ownership issue the NHL could have let the politicians know when they were debating the arena do not give Quebecor the exclusive arena contract to arena. Besides civil war other possibilities are Montreal is blocking them behind the scene out of greed and Jeremy Jacobs don't want them. Was not Quebecor the only dog at the park willing to anti up on the arena? The NHL specifically told the governments not to build that arena in hopes it will automatically gaunttee they get a NHL team. I also recall Quebecor dude, and some politicians strongly suggesting that a deal was in place to get a team. Which I’m sure didn’t bode well with the NHL. Plus the price of an NHL team has more than doubled since the Jets re-entered the league. I was surprised there was not as much outrage over Quebec being overlooked, maybe the price has gotten too steep. I don’t think the Jets would be back if the cost was $500,000,000. It’s probably nice for the NHL to have Quebec City as a possible landing point for a failing franchise. I like to have insurance, but don’t like having to use it.
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 13, 2018 13:41:27 GMT -6
I don't think it's that. If it was solely an ownership issue the NHL could have let the politicians know when they were debating the arena do not give Quebecor the exclusive arena contract to arena. Besides civil war other possibilities are Montreal is blocking them behind the scene out of greed and Jeremy Jacobs don't want them. Was not Quebecor the only dog at the park willing to anti up on the arena? The NHL specifically told the governments not to build that arena in hopes it will automatically gaunttee they get a NHL team. I also recall Quebecor dude, and some politicians strongly suggesting that a deal was in place to get a team. Which I’m sure didn’t bode well with the NHL. Plus the price of an NHL team has more than doubled since the Jets re-entered the league. I was surprised there was not as much outrage over Quebec being overlooked, maybe the price has gotten too steep. I don’t think the Jets would be back if the cost was $500,000,000. It’s probably nice for the NHL to have Quebec City as a possible landing point for a failing franchise. I like to have insurance, but don’t like having to use it. Yes, they always tell all cities that but if they didn't like PKP but wanted to come back at some point to Quebec they could have called the politicos and said something along the lines of "if you build the arena no guarantees of a team BUT we can tell you this, you will NEVER get a team for sure if you give the arena management to Quebecor". Quebecor was the only one who wanted a team but if they were unacceptable to the NHL Quebec City could have still built the arena and turned arena management over to AEG and waited for another ownership to surface. I posted a video on this thread somewhere last summer where some billionaire wanted to buy the Coyotes and move them to Quebec but said Bettman shot him down. I don't think it's a cost thing or that would have leaked. If the cost was so much why would Quebecor been dumb enough to turn it an application to the league that cost millions? The NHL announced the price before the application. The cost has doubled since the Jets came back but the was no Canadian TV deal yet, local TV rights didn't explode yet either. Your comparing apples to oranges. $500M is the midpoint for a team(per forbes). They have the Jets $21M away from the midpoint revenue wise BUT keep in mind the Jets have an outdated TV deal, their arena is a compromise because they didn't know if the league was coming back and True North Square is NOT on line yet. Ottawa a bigger but still small market got a $33M local TV deal. I've heard faint rumors a while back on the Net that the Jets is around $10M. A big factor though is if modern day you let the Jets have a redo on their arena is how much would the province pay. If they volunteered to be 100% taken to the cleaners ala Quebec $500M is doable. If Seattle can pay such a huge price for a franchise with not much hockey history with likely 3 other teams plus have 0 public help on $500M for a compromise arena there's no reason why Winnipeg or Quebec couldn't pay such a big franchise fee if they were given free arenas. We'll see on the insurance idea. Carolina has been sold so that fire is out. What's left is the Coyotes who are hopeless both market wise and arena wise(the area can't support 2 arenas let alone 3) yet the NHL is showing 0 signs of moving them. If they did move them I'm sure they'd pick Houston 1st(not that it would be a bad choice). They saved the Islanders but shouldn't have. The new arena looks like another transportation nightmare. Florida has a while yet to go on their lease. That's really the only remote option I can see for Quebec if you believe the league is using Quebec as insurance. But if they were insurance the league would be using them as a hammer against Calgary's mayor for non compliance on building a new arena. The Calgary mayor has called Bettman as "professional shakedown artiest" is 100% against public funds and Quebec doesn't even get mentioned for leverage. I think the biggest thing against Quebec is the way the 90's went down. Bettman came from a totally different world(the NBA). The NBA is the baby sport of the big 4, it's only been around since 1957. Before 1980 is was a drug league on tape delay. The NBA's history really started in 1980 with Magic/Bird. It really had no traditions pre-80's or not much. Then it grew more with Jordan. In 92 with the Olympic Dream team it went international. The dream team was a celebration/major growth of the sport. Bettman thought the southern expansion would be the hockey equivalent to the 92 dream team. But the NHL had it's traditions unlike the NBA. The sport is a major part of the identity of Canada. Canadians/northern fans were going to have a hard time accepting changes as radical as a bunch of southern teams. Then you throw in the fact that 4 of the southern teams came at the expense of 4 of the northern teams and you have gasoline being thrown onto a fire. Bettman never understood the vitriol from northern fans and resents them for not being NBA fan like. It's affected his judgement with things like keeping a hopeless suburban team/denying Quebec etc.... It's a I'll show you mentality
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Post by bcmike on Feb 13, 2018 13:48:34 GMT -6
My Quebec friends on Twitter believe that a) It's a Habs conspiracy b) That the NHL doesn't like PKP and his separatist politics.
I think option A is just regional rivalry coming out, however option B seems valid considering PKP is a pretty hardcore separatist and the NHL board of governors has a powerful anglo Canadian block along with an aversion to change.
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 13, 2018 14:34:59 GMT -6
I believe option A more than B. Sports teams are VERY territorial. Back during the Expos relocation derby the Seattle Mariners demanded compensation for a Portland team. Don't believe B on less the NHL is even more incompetent than I thought. While the public didn't get to vote on the arena the politicians had plenty of debates on the arena and agreed to make it where the arena couldn't be challenged. It's not like they passed the arena in one day and they picked Quebecor without anyone knowing. If the league did want to possible come back but not guarantee it they could have called the politicos up and said hey we don't want to guarantee you anything but here's a tip. We DO NOT WANT PKP. He's a dirty separatist. We don't guarantee you a team but you absolutely 100% will NOT give you a team if he/Quebecor manage the arena. Give the arena management contract to AEG/Global Spectrum and find another owner and MAYBE we will consider you but again no promises.
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Post by phillymike on Feb 13, 2018 15:27:59 GMT -6
Lol. Like Quebec politicians are known for keeping their mouths shut.
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Post by bcmike on Feb 14, 2018 11:14:58 GMT -6
Here's a thought, maybe it's just good for the NHL to always have someone in the wings wanting a franchise. It's an inflationary lever when it comes to team valuation, I imagine it certainly drove the price up for the Vegas franchise.
Perhaps poor Quebec will always just be in a holding pattern acting as the NHL's shill. Lord knows Hamilton did it for how many years after building Copps coliseum.
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Post by mikecubs on Feb 14, 2018 15:23:43 GMT -6
It's not that. No other sports league intentionally leaves open a very good market in the long term unless there are facility troubles(Seattle-NBA/ and soon to be San Diego-NFL). In the short term a sport may leave a market open as leverage against another city that fails to build a new facility but the thing with Quebec is the NHL is NOT using them for this even(see Calgary) If the NFL/NBA/MLB had a situation where there was a bad facility and the mayor of that city(calgary) called the commissioner "a professional shake down artist" and refused public funds they'd used that open city as leverage. The NFL used LA as leverage for almost every new stadium and MLB did the same with Washington but they eventually filled those markets(though adding 2 LA teams was dumb). The NHL can't bring themselves to even use Quebec as leverage. Bettman's response was "Calgary will try to hold on as long as they can at the Sadledome"
MLB has every market that can support baseball covered except perhaps Montreal but they have no facility and have decided to waste a couple 100M on a new Olympic Stadium roof. Plus MLB has to have an even amount of teams. Intentionally leaving open a good market for whatever reason in the long term wouldn't make the MLB team average go up. It would be lost revenue from gate/loss of eyeballs on TV and anger with the sport for that city being left out. MLB's average franchise price is at 1.5 to 1.6B dollars. Same with the NBA. No one was left out except Seattle because of facility issues. Now if you do fill Quebec it's not like the NHL is going to be the NBA/MLB but you go still go to a higher level revenue wise raising all franchise values.
Quebec/Houston MUCH MUCH>>>>>Arizona/Florida
The NHL got so much for Vegas because they had the leverage. If Foley didn't meet the price no expansion.
The reason for sports franchise values
1. TV is the number 1 reason. Sports are the last thing holding cable tv together. See the local TV deals in MLB/NBA/NHL and the national TV deals in the US for NFL/NBA/MLB and hockey in Canada
2. There are only 30-32 teams in the 4 major sports leagues and there are tons of billionaires wanting a new toy
3. Most of the franchises in the 4 major sports have modern facilities and most were built on the back of the taxpayers.
4. Other than the NHL the other 3 sports have covered every market that can support their sport other than Seattle-NBA/San Diego-NFL and perhaps Montreal-MLB. By not leaving anyone out you maximize the revenue pot.
I fear you are right about Quebec being Hamilton 2.0. At least with Hamilton putting a team would have been a violation of Toronto and Buffalo's territory so I don't blame the NHL for that one. Plus Hamilton would kill Buffalo. Montreal may be trying to block Quebec(and succeeding) but under NHL rules Quebec City is not a part of Montreal's territory and a Quebec team will not make a Montreal/Boston go under.
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