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Post by lenny on Sept 30, 2019 19:58:10 GMT -6
Patrik was on the ice for 54 goals against. Until he decides to add a defensive aspect to his game his 30 goals don't mean much when you're letting the other team outscore you almost 2 to 1. He says he models himself after OV, well OV changed his game to play more defensively. Patrik can so the same. So the kid was -24 his third year of his ELC. You said OV cleaned up his +/- to play more defensively. Well kind of... His 9th year in the NHL he was -35. His second year he was -18. There have been hiccups in his game as well. OV has been on some pretty stellar lines as well and it shows in his big plus numbers. Niklas Backstrom is the most prominent center there who is his center usually. His best + years were his third, fifth and sixth : 28, 45, 24. lol.
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rickybobby
3rd Line Checker
Just waiting for my time in the sun, on a beach
Posts: 250
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Post by rickybobby on Oct 1, 2019 6:59:10 GMT -6
I can't believe I agree with Lenny's last two posts!
Cheers Lenny!!
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Post by lovethejets on Oct 1, 2019 9:27:18 GMT -6
I can't believe I agree with Lenny's last two posts! Cheers Lenny!! when he produces stats like that to back up his case how can you not agree? i do as well
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Post by hillman on Oct 1, 2019 10:29:20 GMT -6
I can't believe I agree with Lenny's last two posts! Cheers Lenny!! when he produces stats like that to back up his case how can you not agree? i do as well There's lots to be argued with and I am not a stats guy. To start with my understanding +/-- is rarely used and is way to faulty to come into the discussion. As far as hits, of course Connor has less. They are 2 completely different body types .Watch how he takes the puck away in the O zone it's not with a big hit it's with those filthy hands and stick. If Connor starts throwing his body around he will be done in short order , much like we are seeing with Heinola he uses his other talents. Hits really don't have alot do do with his performance in his own zone. Don't forget he wasn't going up against top lines as much as Connor. I don't know how any one could have watched him and not thought he was a one dimensional player. I think the rules were pretty easy.Play better defensivly and you move up the roster. Any ideas that they restricted his success for contract purposes is strictly conjecture and has very little credence.I don't know if anyone caught the Sportsnet preview but holy crap did Burke ever slam Laine. Was he right ? Not with everything he said but he had his points.
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Post by lenny on Oct 1, 2019 11:38:25 GMT -6
when he produces stats like that to back up his case how can you not agree? i do as well There's lots to be argued with and I am not a stats guy. To start with my understanding +/-- is rarely used and is way to faulty to come into the discussion. As far as hits, of course Connor has less. They are 2 completely different body types .Watch how he takes the puck away in the O zone it's not with a big hit it's with those filthy hands and stick. If Connor starts throwing his body around he will be done in short order , much like we are seeing with Heinola he uses his other talents. Hits really don't have alot do do with his performance in his own zone. Don't forget he wasn't going up against top lines as much as Connor. I don't know how any one could have watched him and not thought he was a one dimensional player. I think the rules were pretty easy.Play better defensivly and you move up the roster. Any ideas that they restricted his success for contract purposes is strictly conjecture and has very little credence.I don't know if anyone caught the Sportsnet preview but holy crap did Burke ever slam Laine. Was he right ? Not with everything he said but he had his points. Couple of things here. First, every coach and particularly guys who have been around a lot, including color guys on broadcast use the +/-. Maurice oftentimes mentions it. It is a stat like Corsi and Fenwick which must be taken in context with other factors. That's not in dispute. So there's no blind use of it here. Yes there's lots of Corsi/Fenwick disciples which take shots at it and articles blah blah. But you can take any stat such as the Corsi (EV) and look at a player and see - wow look at his possession numbers. Great. Unfortunately they don't tell you the whole story because while a player might have great possession numbers maybe his (1) giveaways are bad (2) he can't score worth crap. Other way of saying it a player can possess the puck all he wants but it's what he does with it that matters. So let's get that straight right off the top. But it's also why I made reference to his Corsi AND +/- and other stats. The other thing about +/- is that it shows tendencies and will tend to indicate that a line, a person, a team has got problems. A few years back with the Oilers as pathetic as they were before McDavid almost every player was a negative player including several double digit negatives. The whole team was a defensive mess. The +/- stat clearly indicated that and that was throughout the lineup. As well as the Corsi/Fenwick stats. There is no ignoring the stat. It couldn't be ignored with OV when he was being heavily criticized about his defensive playing which directly showed up on his +/- and he was playing with a good center and winger. His actions effected the entire line and team ultimately. +/- is a stat which is accounted for on NHL.com and other stats sites like Hockey-Reference. It is not rarely used therefore. It is used along with other stats to give an understanding of the total picture. Your point about Connor is not valid. Why? Maybe someone wants to to fashion themselves as a prima dona on the ice but you would run out of fingers counting the number of small players who have been small and consistent and even big hitters as well as offensive. We'll leave the past because there's too many to mention. But as an example Alex DeBrincat at 5'7 and 165 lbs 28G and 41G last year for Chicago also 35 hits and 40 hits in those years. I mean we're not asking Connor to be a hitting machine but this guy barely hits anything and quite frankly I haven't noticed his deftness with a stick in the defensive sense. I have in the offensive sense. He's not that good defensively because he can't or doesn't want to do that or pay any kind of price. He wants a guy like Scheif or Wheels to do that I don't care Laine's size but we want this kid to score like a machine not hit like a machine and yet he hits to his credit. Tanev is a small guy with his best stat offensive season last year and he led the team in hits with 278. Ehlers who only played 62 games last hear had 27 hits and he's small and expected to be offensive. Connor - 9 hits.It's laughable to give him a pass. Sounds like his mates Scheif and Wheels are doing the heavy lifting for him. The other comment about the slam on Laine by Burke. Well Laine should have been given a smackdown as I did in the first paragraph of the post above. I THOUGHT I was trying to convey his pathetic year last year which is not much in dispute had a bloody REASON. Because he wanted to be on the first line and after November thinking he had earned it with those 18 goals and was not rewarded with that took a personal nosedive, pouted, likely complained to his agent and everyone around him. It's a choice he made because he was being screwed with. But make no mistake about it putting Little as his center doesn't help him as an offensive player. A couple of years ago they showed Ehlers stat with Scheif (and Laine) and with Little and PPG took a nosedive with Little. That's why this organization spent the last two years getting a competent 2nd line center at the trade deadline. Laine was (is) not happy with Little as his center and that and his personal choices effected his play.
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Post by hillman on Oct 1, 2019 12:00:07 GMT -6
I don't think you can list Connor as a prima donna just because he doesn't register a bunch of hits. He scores a ton of goals in heavy action in front of the net.When he was sent to the moose there were no rumours of complaints or pouting. There has been nothing in his time here that suggests it. Laine , a different storey. I don't disagree that plus minus can still be used a bit but more as a general thing and I don't hear it used much at all now. I still don't see anything that says Laine was screwed with.Every team now a days has young kids who think that they are not high enough on the lineup.Hes just another one.Albeit a very very good one.
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Post by lenny on Oct 1, 2019 12:13:28 GMT -6
I don't think you can list Connor as a prima donna just because he doesn't register a bunch of hits. He scores a ton of goals in heavy action in front of the net.When he was sent to the moose there were no rumours of complaints or pouting. There has been nothing in his time here that suggests it. Laine , a different storey. I don't disagree that plus minus can still be used a bit but more as a general thing and I don't hear it used much at all now. I still don't see anything that says Laine was screwed with.Every team now a days has young kids who think that they are not high enough on the lineup.Hes just another one.Albeit a very very good one. You don't hear but I hear it constantly +/-. Of course Connor wasn't pouting particularly the last two years since he was getting primo time with Scheif and Wheels. He played 20 games his first year because he deserved to play 20 games and do time with the Moose. Not Laine. Laine no primo time even though he scored 44 goals the year before last and was great in the playoffs. You don't see how he was screwed, fine.
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Post by Tim on Oct 1, 2019 12:20:15 GMT -6
time to put Mark Nick and Patrick back together!
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Post by lenny on Oct 1, 2019 14:20:51 GMT -6
I'm surprised more people aren't voting for the 'shut up' and do as your told option! Right side with Scheif is still the majority position at over 54%. Get your votes in. It locks October 5th! First league game is October the 3rd in New York. I don't think Laine will be on the right side.
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hockeymyway
2nd Line Winger
Sorry! You Were Rude To Me So Now You Get No Hot Dog
Posts: 344
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Post by hockeymyway on Oct 1, 2019 15:17:01 GMT -6
What about right side with Wheeler:
Connor-Wheeler-Laine Perreault-Scheifele-Ehlers Copp-Lowry-Bourque Appleton-Letestu-Roslovic
That's three solid lines. 1st O line played together back in Jan/18 when Scheifele was injured. Scheifele with Laine on the right side places the teams two best scoring players on the same line. This won't work. The competition to score would conflict between the two. As a result, Scheifele and Laine would and have shown poor chemistry together since both want the pass to score. Anyone have stats on the 1st line or 2nd Line combo?
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Post by lenny on Oct 1, 2019 15:28:33 GMT -6
What about right side with Wheeler: Connor-Wheeler-Laine Perreault-Scheifele-Ehlers Copp-Lowry-Bourque Appleton-Letestu-Roslovic That's three solid lines. 1st O line played together back in Jan/18 when Scheifele was injured. Scheifele with Laine on the right side places the teams two best scoring players on the same line. This won't work. The competition to score would conflict between the two. As a result, Scheifele and Laine would and have shown poor chemistry together since both want the pass to score. Anyone have stats on the 1st line or 2nd Line combo? I like your first two lines. I'd have no problem with him playing on the right with Wheels at center as Wheels' WAR numbers are better than Scheif's meaning he is the best on the team in creating offence - one of the very definitions of a center. But I don't think Maurice, being the stubborn coach he is would do that unless Scheif got injured like last time.
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hockeymyway
2nd Line Winger
Sorry! You Were Rude To Me So Now You Get No Hot Dog
Posts: 344
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Post by hockeymyway on Oct 1, 2019 16:10:06 GMT -6
What about right side with Wheeler: Connor-Wheeler-Laine Perreault-Scheifele-Ehlers Copp-Lowry-Bourque Appleton-Letestu-Roslovic That's three solid lines. 1st O line played together back in Jan/18 when Scheifele was injured. Scheifele with Laine on the right side places the teams two best scoring players on the same line. This won't work. The competition to score would conflict between the two. As a result, Scheifele and Laine would and have shown poor chemistry together since both want the pass to score. Anyone have stats on the 1st line or 2nd Line combo? I like your first two lines. I'd have no problem with him playing on the right with Wheels at center as Wheels' WAR numbers are better than Scheif's meaning he is the best on the team in creating offence - one of the very definitions of a center. But I don't think Maurice, being the stubborn coach he is would do that unless Scheif got injured like last time. I have some unofficial stats I kept in Excel that during the time Scheifele was injured Little played centre on the 2nd O line. Scheifele was injured between Dec 29/18 to Feb 6/19 for 16 games. The goals scored by Connor 6, Wheeler 4, Ehlers 3, Perreault 6, Little 7. Well, Little is injured this time and Scheifele can be his replacement. The number of goals scored indicate good chemistry. Maurice has time to juggle his lines or may stay put with his best O line 1 to start the season.
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Post by lenny on Oct 1, 2019 16:51:18 GMT -6
Looks like Copp will be centering Laine and Connor with Little on the IR.
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Post by babs44 on Oct 1, 2019 20:24:08 GMT -6
Is little Patty ok with that ?
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Post by lenny on Oct 7, 2019 9:51:31 GMT -6
So we see Maurice put him on the left side for a period or so with Scheif and Wheels in the Islanders game.
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