|
Post by enarwpg on Oct 6, 2011 11:40:03 GMT -6
Yes - jetsorbust seems to have all the answers, yet fails to tell us what they are.... I've never claimed to have all the answers. I was a snot-nosed 10 year old kid when the Jets left, surprisingly I wasn't privy to all of the inside negotiations to save the Jets. But I've talked about the Jets to almost everyone I've met over the last 15 years, so I have heard from several people who had at least a bit better of an idea of what went on back then than I did. My understanding is that Bettman (and the league) changed deadlines and changed ownership rules (related to who/how many people could form an ownership group) which made it more difficult for anyone to step forward to save the Jets. You can all choose to believe that or not, I for one do because of the number of people I've heard allude to the same sort of thing. But the over-riding truth in all of this is simpler. Can anyone honestly say, from the way things generally went in the 90's that they doubt Bettman wanted to move into big US markets and didn't care what happened to "the little guy" in order to get there?Be honest with yourself, we all know Bettman didn't care about Winnipeg and had no interest in working to save small market teams, because he believed the grass was greener in big US markets. Maybe your fine with that, but personally, that makes me think he's a weasel and I don't like that sort of person or want that sort of person as the head of the league. Who knows if that's true because it only happened to "little ol Winnipeg"......, but that's history and will be forgotten / forgiven quickly, if not already, by most. Those who hang on to it are disposed to live their lives thinking about the past and arguing about it with people who really don't give a crap about what was.... as for me, to quote Tina Turner: ...I never lost one minute of sleeping Worrying ’bout the way things might have been...
|
|
|
Post by jetsorbust on Oct 6, 2011 11:45:12 GMT -6
I was a snot-nosed 10 year old kid when the Jets left, surprisingly I wasn't privy to all of the inside negotiations to save the Jets. And you're a snot nosed 25 year old now. Grow up, and get over yourself. Frankly I've gone on like a baby about this topic, so the grow up part I could understand. But I honestly don't get the "get over yourself" part. All I said was I think Bettman is a weasel and that I would never cheer for him, and will boo him. It's other people in this thread that think me doing so will ruin the whole return of the Jets! Perhaps we should all just agree to disagree. Or we could all just agree to boo the weasel! ;D
|
|
|
Post by barks1737 on Oct 6, 2011 11:49:07 GMT -6
Hey guys.... guess what? 3 more sleeps till the puck drops. Who cares about Bettman. He'll be a side show at the biggest event in Winnipeg history. Everyone will be cheering so much that we'll forget to stop when Gary comes out to welcome us back to the NHL.
He's probably gonna come out and hype the Jets and the game! The fans will go nuts and all you sour boo birds will be drowned out.
I like some good old fashioned arguments about sports in general, but the negativity around here is getting pretty bad. Quit whining about 15 years ago and focus on the now! The Jets are back!!
|
|
|
Post by jetsorbust on Oct 6, 2011 11:53:50 GMT -6
Hey guys.... guess what? 3 more sleeps till the puck drops. Who cares about Bettman. He'll be a side show at the biggest event in Winnipeg history. Everyone will be cheering so much that we'll forget to stop when Gary comes out to welcome us back to the NHL. He's probably gonna come out and hype the Jets and the game! The fans will go nuts and all you sour boo birds will be drowned out. I like some good old fashioned arguments about sports in general, but the negativity around here is getting pretty bad. Quit whining about 15 years ago and focus on the now! The Jets are back!! Agreed! Outside of this forum, I haven't thought or talked about Bettman. My feelings on him obviously won't be swayed, but this is being made out to be a much bigger deal than it is, whether he gets booed or not.
|
|
|
Post by dkehler on Oct 6, 2011 11:55:42 GMT -6
I was a snot-nosed 10 year old kid when the Jets left, surprisingly I wasn't privy to all of the inside negotiations to save the Jets. And you're a snot nosed 25 year old now. Grow up, and get over yourself. jetsorbust is A-OK in my books and he is entitled to his opinion. I completely understand where it comes from. I sincerely doubt that Bettman truly cares one iota about Winnipeg, but we were a means to an end for him, so we now have a team. We will make it impossible for him to ever take it away from us again (not that he was the sole reason we lost the team, but he certainly was not heartbroken when the original Jets left Winnipeg). That said, I hope that Winnipeg does the classy thing and cheers for him on Sunday.
|
|
|
Post by myusernamesucks on Oct 6, 2011 11:58:14 GMT -6
And you're a snot nosed 25 year old now. Grow up, and get over yourself. Frankly I've gone on like a baby about this topic, so the grow up part I could understand. But I honestly don't get the "get over yourself" part. All I said was I think Bettman is a weasel and that I would never cheer for him, and will boo him. It's other people in this thread that think me doing so will ruin the whole return of the Jets! Perhaps we should all just agree to disagree. Or we could all just agree to boo the weasel! ;D Clearly you're not going to be swayed, but I'll say this: If you really, in your heart of hearts, think Bettman threw up roadblocks and was happy that the team left (and maybe he did, and maybe he was) that's absolutely your opinion. The fact remains - NO local ownership. NO arena. CDN dollar. Salaries. Etc. Etc. Gary Bettman, while the face of the league, was not solely responsible. Do you for one second think that if Gary Bettman had a grudge against Winnipeg that the league would be back here? Regardless of whether or not he may not have had other options. Would we have a team if Bettman didn't want us to? NO. For that reason, I will politely applaud him. And one other thing - Mark Chipman brought hockey back to this town and he has asked that we respect Bettman and not boo him. And that's why I say get over yourself. If for all those reasons you still can't bring yourself to at least for one day put your hate for the man on hold, then we will certainly have to agree to disagree.
|
|
|
Post by davebabych on Oct 6, 2011 12:02:51 GMT -6
Back on Jetsowner, I wrote a post about what Bettman did to prevent the Jets from staying; complete with links to newspaper article to support my argument. I'm not going to go on Jetsowner to find those links, simply because there's no point.
It doesn't matter anymore who was at fault for the Jets leaving in 1996. No grudge, or amount of bickering will change what happened 15 years ago. The important thing is we have an NHL team now, so let's focus on what we can actually do to ensure this team never leaves again.
Booing Bettman will not do anything positive for our city or team. If Winnipeg were to give Bettman a polite clap, it could only help our reputation with the league. This is coming from someone who used to have a picture of Bettman's head on my parent's dart board when I was in junior high.
|
|
|
Post by kidshowtime on Oct 6, 2011 12:07:38 GMT -6
He's going to be booed. Even if all of the 1000 members here happen to be at the home opener and didn't boo, we'd be drowned out by the boos of the average fan.
|
|
|
Post by jetsorbust on Oct 6, 2011 12:07:43 GMT -6
I don't even think that Bettman does have a grudge against Winnipeg. What I've always hated about him is the fact that I don't think he cares one tiny bit whether a fan base (such as Winnipeg) loses their team.
Between that and his general demeanour, I don't like the guy one bit.
The only arguement that does make me want to reconsider is what you mentioned about Chipman. However, I just still don't think I can do it.
|
|
|
Post by Lions67 on Oct 6, 2011 12:10:10 GMT -6
jetsorbust is A-OK in my books and he is entitled to his opinion. I completely understand where it comes from. I sincerely doubt that Bettman truly cares one iota about Winnipeg, but we were a means to an end for him, so we now have a team. We will make it impossible for him to ever take it away from us again (not that he was the sole reason we lost the team, but he certainly was not heartbroken when the original Jets left Winnipeg). That said, I hope that Winnipeg does the classy thing and cheers for him on Sunday. well said Dave.
|
|
|
Post by domi on Oct 6, 2011 12:13:30 GMT -6
OK, first of all, I would like to officially state that I think Bettman is a complete weasel, and should not be the head of the NHL. He insults the game by his presence. That being said, I think “booing” him only takes away from the good vibe of the Winnipeg Jets and moves the spotlight on Bettman (where it doesn’t belong). A quick “golf-clap” when they introduce Bettman is all you need do. Let him spew his little lies for a couple minutes, and then let’s just get on with OUR team. OK? Don’t make “ Bettman Gets Booed” the headline everyone reads the next day! Now, here I go getting into this debate: I think jetsorbust was correct when he said this: But the over-riding truth in all of this is simpler. Can anyone honestly say, from the way things generally went in the 90's that they doubt Bettman wanted to move into big US markets and didn't care what happened to “the little guy” in order to get there? Bettman was hired by owners like Bruce McNell (now convicted of fraud), to bring hockey to mainstream-America. Bettman thought then that the easiest way to do it was move the small market teams to the Southern US (where there was a population boom). His thinking was that Canada was easily “serviced” by two or three teams. The future for growth lay in the Southern US. HE NO LONGER THINKS THAT. But that was his thinking at the time. So in saying that, I think pegger5 was partially wrong when he wrote: ... The reality is Winnipeg had no owner, a crappy arena, and average season ticket base and corporate support.... Winnipeg's economy was hurting back then... Oh, and the CDN dollar sucked..... Where is any of this Bettmans fault? Because he didn't fight like he is in Phoenix? Guess what?, they are only in Phoenix because the city of Glendale keeps giving the 25 million a year... Something Winnipeg would not do... ! Yes, the city of Winnipeg dropped the ball leading up to 1995. But that was not Bettman’s fault. But what it did was make Winnipeg an easy target for Bettman’s expansion dreams in 1995. There is no doubt that if Bettman had allowed organizers to use the team for financing the way they had proposed, Winnipeg would have fixed all the problems over the next 5 years. Bettman kept putting up road blocks in 1995 every time a solution was found. Even paying for losses (like Glendale does now) would not have worked in 1995. Bettman simply would not allow a team to be owned by the NHL while there were investors lining up to set up teams in Minnesota, Phoenix, Kansas City and Atlanta. If you actually took the time to read all this, I’m sorry for how long it was. But I’ve been following this for a long time. Bettman had a choice in 1995 and we know what his choice was.
|
|
|
Post by myusernamesucks on Oct 6, 2011 12:23:44 GMT -6
My whole point is that regardless of what you think about him, can we not just hold off on the boos for one day? It just looks bad.
Brutal analogy, I know, but I compare it to that idiot who kept holding the friggin stuffed monkey behind Ray Ferraro's head during the Carolina telecast. I'm watching on TV and thinking....OMG this makes us look bush league.
|
|
|
Post by pachman40 on Oct 6, 2011 12:27:13 GMT -6
Here we go, time to rewind and have a little history lesson for some of the Bettman haters here.
First of all, I don't like Bettman, I don't like his arrogance, I don't like the way he never answers a question with a straight answer. And I don't like the way he thinks his poop smells rosy. That being said, if you boo him for those reasons then whatever but don't blame him for 1995.
I was 21 years old and I lived and breathed Jets at that time. Yes we all know the dollar sucked, we all know that the economy wasn't the greatest, and we all know the arena sucked, but let's go beyond that. For the years leading up to 1995 salaries were spiralling upward with no sign of plateauing. Shenkarow (the original weasel) was losing money and wanted a new arena, very understandable but not a barrier we couldn't get through.
Ticket prices started going up and up and people started whining like babies about their lighter wallets. Winnipeg was a cheap city back then and the situation has changed drastically where we now spend our entertainment dollars a lot more freely. People were getting extremely grumpy about paying more while Shenkarow complained about losing money leading to a negative vibe about the Jets BEFORE the threat of relocation became more realistic. We all romanticize the "Save the Jets" campaign and I look back fondly like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of off-ice negativity in this City towards the whole Jets situation until we realized that they were leaving.
Shenkarow wanted to cash in because he worried the value of the franchise would go down the toilet and there were people in Phoenix who wanted to make him rich. Shenkarow is not David Thompson and the money he'd be getting was massive and hard to turn down for a guy like that. The NHL wasn't stupid and liked the idea of getting into the Phoenix market which was booming. That being said, Shenkarow and the NHL were perfectly fine with leaving the Jets in Winnipeg if there was someone who would pay the piper. There was no "hometown discount", he had a solid offer that was going to line his pocket and the NHL would be moving into a "better market". It was a no-brainer unless someone stepped up with the same money.
Lots of negotiations, lots of hard work, lots of emotion, but in the end there was nobody in Winnipeg with the cash willing to step up and pay Shenkarow. There were no politicians willing to cover losses (refer to previously discussed negativity) and in the end nobody local stepped up to the plate. Our local businesses and politicians are the ones to blame for the Jets 1.0 leaving town with a heaping helping of Shenkarow's pockets.
Bettman displayed the same amount of effort for us as he did this summer with Atlanta. The similarities are crazy because Bettman saw in Winnipeg this summer the same opportunity he saw in Phoenix 15 years ago. He would be moving into a potentially great market and leaving a headache behind.
I'll be at the game Sunday and I honestly don't know how I'll react but one thing I know is that I won't be booing him cuz bottom line is that if Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get a team back then it wouldn't happen.
|
|
|
Post by pegger5 on Oct 6, 2011 13:08:54 GMT -6
Here we go, time to rewind and have a little history lesson for some of the Bettman haters here. First of all, I don't like Bettman, I don't like his arrogance, I don't like the way he never answers a question with a straight answer. And I don't like the way he thinks his poop smells rosy. That being said, if you boo him for those reasons then whatever but don't blame him for 1995. I was 21 years old and I lived and breathed Jets at that time. Yes we all know the dollar sucked, we all know that the economy wasn't the greatest, and we all know the arena sucked, but let's go beyond that. For the years leading up to 1995 salaries were spiralling upward with no sign of plateauing. Shenkarow (the original weasel) was losing money and wanted a new arena, very understandable but not a barrier we couldn't get through. Ticket prices started going up and up and people started whining like babies about their lighter wallets. Winnipeg was a cheap city back then and the situation has changed drastically where we now spend our entertainment dollars a lot more freely. People were getting extremely grumpy about paying more while Shenkarow complained about losing money leading to a negative vibe about the Jets BEFORE the threat of relocation became more realistic. We all romanticize the "Save the Jets" campaign and I look back fondly like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of off-ice negativity in this City towards the whole Jets situation until we realized that they were leaving. Shenkarow wanted to cash in because he worried the value of the franchise would go down the toilet and there were people in Phoenix who wanted to make him rich. Shenkarow is not David Thompson and the money he'd be getting was massive and hard to turn down for a guy like that. The NHL wasn't stupid and liked the idea of getting into the Phoenix market which was booming. That being said, Shenkarow and the NHL were perfectly fine with leaving the Jets in Winnipeg if there was someone who would pay the piper. There was no "hometown discount", he had a solid offer that was going to line his pocket and the NHL would be moving into a "better market". It was a no-brainer unless someone stepped up with the same money. Lots of negotiations, lots of hard work, lots of emotion, but in the end there was nobody in Winnipeg with the cash willing to step up and pay Shenkarow. There were no politicians willing to cover losses (refer to previously discussed negativity) and in the end nobody local stepped up to the plate. Our local businesses and politicians are the ones to blame for the Jets 1.0 leaving town with a heaping helping of Shenkarow's pockets. Bettman displayed the same amount of effort for us as he did this summer with Atlanta. The similarities are crazy because Bettman saw in Winnipeg this summer the same opportunity he saw in Phoenix 15 years ago. He would be moving into a potentially great market and leaving a headache behind. I'll be at the game Sunday and I honestly don't know how I'll react but one thing I know is that I won't be booing him cuz bottom line is that if Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get a team back then it wouldn't happen. Well said..... I concure
|
|
DR
Rookie
Buffalo Sabres fan 1st. Winnipeg Jets fan 2nd. There is no 3rd.
Posts: 40
|
Post by DR on Oct 6, 2011 13:34:14 GMT -6
From the outsiders point of view no one asked for:
Booing him just makes Winnipeg look bad. Fans here in Buffalo boo Bettman as well anytime he makes an appearence, when the truth is Bettman saved the Sabres from moving in 2001 when the owners of Adelphia cable got hauled off to jail.
Bettman is a weasily looking dude, who twists words without ever lying.
If he wanted to, he could have single handedly squashed any hopes of NHL returning to Winnipeg because he is the comish and he ultimately has the final say. He could have sighted economics, market size, building size, and twisted it every which way to make sure Winnipeg never got a team again.
He could have squashed your NHL dreams, and your kids NHL dreams. The owners love him, he'll be comish for another 20 years.
But here you are. Back in the NHL, again.
And again I ask, why are some of you thinking of booing Gary Bettman again ?
|
|