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Post by dkehler on Oct 6, 2011 14:09:18 GMT -6
Here we go, time to rewind and have a little history lesson for some of the Bettman haters here. First of all, I don't like Bettman, I don't like his arrogance, I don't like the way he never answers a question with a straight answer. And I don't like the way he thinks his poop smells rosy. That being said, if you boo him for those reasons then whatever but don't blame him for 1995. I was 21 years old and I lived and breathed Jets at that time. Yes we all know the dollar sucked, we all know that the economy wasn't the greatest, and we all know the arena sucked, but let's go beyond that. For the years leading up to 1995 salaries were spiralling upward with no sign of plateauing. Shenkarow (the original weasel) was losing money and wanted a new arena, very understandable but not a barrier we couldn't get through. Ticket prices started going up and up and people started whining like babies about their lighter wallets. Winnipeg was a cheap city back then and the situation has changed drastically where we now spend our entertainment dollars a lot more freely. People were getting extremely grumpy about paying more while Shenkarow complained about losing money leading to a negative vibe about the Jets BEFORE the threat of relocation became more realistic. We all romanticize the "Save the Jets" campaign and I look back fondly like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of off-ice negativity in this City towards the whole Jets situation until we realized that they were leaving. Shenkarow wanted to cash in because he worried the value of the franchise would go down the toilet and there were people in Phoenix who wanted to make him rich. Shenkarow is not David Thompson and the money he'd be getting was massive and hard to turn down for a guy like that. The NHL wasn't stupid and liked the idea of getting into the Phoenix market which was booming. That being said, Shenkarow and the NHL were perfectly fine with leaving the Jets in Winnipeg if there was someone who would pay the piper. There was no "hometown discount", he had a solid offer that was going to line his pocket and the NHL would be moving into a "better market". It was a no-brainer unless someone stepped up with the same money. Lots of negotiations, lots of hard work, lots of emotion, but in the end there was nobody in Winnipeg with the cash willing to step up and pay Shenkarow. There were no politicians willing to cover losses (refer to previously discussed negativity) and in the end nobody local stepped up to the plate. Our local businesses and politicians are the ones to blame for the Jets 1.0 leaving town with a heaping helping of Shenkarow's pockets. Bettman displayed the same amount of effort for us as he did this summer with Atlanta. The similarities are crazy because Bettman saw in Winnipeg this summer the same opportunity he saw in Phoenix 15 years ago. He would be moving into a potentially great market and leaving a headache behind. I'll be at the game Sunday and I honestly don't know how I'll react but one thing I know is that I won't be booing him cuz bottom line is that if Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get a team back then it wouldn't happen. I lived through that time as well, as many of us did, and I don't think I can completely agree with your description of what happened. For instance, I do believe that there was a "hometown discount" if you will. I can't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure a buyer that would keep the team in Winnipeg had the first option at a greatly reduced price. The fact of the matter, as I recall, is that purchasing the team and even getting an arena built could have been done. The problem was the losses that were going to pile up before a new arena could be built. And it is there that some of the creative solutions that were being talked about were effectively kiboshed by Bettman and the NHL. People involved at the time, like Jim Loewen, have stated just how much of a hindrance Bettman was to the negotiations. There is no doubt in my mind that Bettman wanted the team out of Winnipeg at almost any cost. Of course, that is all water under the bridge right now and I still think we should take the high road and give the man a polite ovation, forever proving how much better we are than he was and is. |
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Post by jimmyohhhh on Oct 6, 2011 14:24:00 GMT -6
My recollection of the time was that the City had a first right of refusal for a lower price than Shenkarow was offered by the PHX bunch.
Maybe there were two many high profile local business people in the room, many not willing to dig deep enough.
The effort was for naught.
Bettman most publically ended up the goat.
Shenkarow got the higher dollar amount.
Sad days.
The 15 year drought ensued.
Fast forward to now... Bettman was credited by Mark Chipman as being very helpful.
We have a team again.
I'd cheer the Devil were he to have played a role in the exciting return of Jet hockey to Winnipeg.
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Post by pachman40 on Oct 6, 2011 14:59:07 GMT -6
Here we go, time to rewind and have a little history lesson for some of the Bettman haters here. First of all, I don't like Bettman, I don't like his arrogance, I don't like the way he never answers a question with a straight answer. And I don't like the way he thinks his poop smells rosy. That being said, if you boo him for those reasons then whatever but don't blame him for 1995. I was 21 years old and I lived and breathed Jets at that time. Yes we all know the dollar sucked, we all know that the economy wasn't the greatest, and we all know the arena sucked, but let's go beyond that. For the years leading up to 1995 salaries were spiralling upward with no sign of plateauing. Shenkarow (the original weasel) was losing money and wanted a new arena, very understandable but not a barrier we couldn't get through. Ticket prices started going up and up and people started whining like babies about their lighter wallets. Winnipeg was a cheap city back then and the situation has changed drastically where we now spend our entertainment dollars a lot more freely. People were getting extremely grumpy about paying more while Shenkarow complained about losing money leading to a negative vibe about the Jets BEFORE the threat of relocation became more realistic. We all romanticize the "Save the Jets" campaign and I look back fondly like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of off-ice negativity in this City towards the whole Jets situation until we realized that they were leaving. Shenkarow wanted to cash in because he worried the value of the franchise would go down the toilet and there were people in Phoenix who wanted to make him rich. Shenkarow is not David Thompson and the money he'd be getting was massive and hard to turn down for a guy like that. The NHL wasn't stupid and liked the idea of getting into the Phoenix market which was booming. That being said, Shenkarow and the NHL were perfectly fine with leaving the Jets in Winnipeg if there was someone who would pay the piper. There was no "hometown discount", he had a solid offer that was going to line his pocket and the NHL would be moving into a "better market". It was a no-brainer unless someone stepped up with the same money. Lots of negotiations, lots of hard work, lots of emotion, but in the end there was nobody in Winnipeg with the cash willing to step up and pay Shenkarow. There were no politicians willing to cover losses (refer to previously discussed negativity) and in the end nobody local stepped up to the plate. Our local businesses and politicians are the ones to blame for the Jets 1.0 leaving town with a heaping helping of Shenkarow's pockets. Bettman displayed the same amount of effort for us as he did this summer with Atlanta. The similarities are crazy because Bettman saw in Winnipeg this summer the same opportunity he saw in Phoenix 15 years ago. He would be moving into a potentially great market and leaving a headache behind. I'll be at the game Sunday and I honestly don't know how I'll react but one thing I know is that I won't be booing him cuz bottom line is that if Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get a team back then it wouldn't happen. I lived through that time as well, as many of us did, and I don't think I can completely agree with your description of what happened. For instance, I do believe that there was a "hometown discount" if you will. I can't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure a buyer that would keep the team in Winnipeg had the first option at a greatly reduced price. The fact of the matter, as I recall, is that purchasing the team and even getting an arena built could have been done. The problem was the losses that were going to pile up before a new arena could be built. And it is there that some of the creative solutions that were being talked about were effectively kiboshed by Bettman and the NHL. People involved at the time, like Jim Loewen, have stated just how much of a hindrance Bettman was to the negotiations. There is no doubt in my mind that Bettman wanted the team out of Winnipeg at almost any cost. Of course, that is all water under the bridge right now and I still think we should take the high road and give the man a polite ovation, forever proving how much better we are than he was and is. We all take different memories away from the same experiences and I wouldn't be surprised if some of my impressions of how things went down are a little off, but I think in the general public's eyes Bettman's portion of the responsibility gradually grew over the years while Shenkarow somehow came out of it smelling like roses. Agreed, its water under the bridge, and I'll be taking the high road right beside you. |
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Post by rainmanrh on Oct 6, 2011 15:49:00 GMT -6
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Post by hacky666 on Oct 6, 2011 18:01:44 GMT -6
A lot of fluff and personal opinion, if you're going to make a case for something, could you at least cite some credible sources or the sources of your information?
Thanks.
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Post by enarwpg on Oct 6, 2011 18:12:27 GMT -6
OK, first of all, I would like to officially state that I think Bettman is a complete weasel, and should not be the head of the NHL. He insults the game by his presence. That being said, I think “booing” him only takes away from the good vibe of the Winnipeg Jets and moves the spotlight on Bettman (where it doesn’t belong). A quick “golf-clap” when they introduce Bettman is all you need do. Let him spew his little lies for a couple minutes, and then let’s just get on with OUR team. OK? Don’t make “ Bettman Gets Booed” the headline everyone reads the next day! Now, here I go getting into this debate: I think jetsorbust was correct when he said this: But the over-riding truth in all of this is simpler. Can anyone honestly say, from the way things generally went in the 90's that they doubt Bettman wanted to move into big US markets and didn't care what happened to “the little guy” in order to get there? Bettman was hired by owners like Bruce McNell (now convicted of fraud), to bring hockey to mainstream-America. Bettman thought then that the easiest way to do it was move the small market teams to the Southern US (where there was a population boom). His thinking was that Canada was easily “serviced” by two or three teams. The future for growth lay in the Southern US. HE NO LONGER THINKS THAT. But that was his thinking at the time. So in saying that, I think pegger5 was partially wrong when he wrote: ... The reality is Winnipeg had no owner, a crappy arena, and average season ticket base and corporate support.... Winnipeg's economy was hurting back then... Oh, and the CDN dollar sucked..... Where is any of this Bettmans fault? Because he didn't fight like he is in Phoenix? Guess what?, they are only in Phoenix because the city of Glendale keeps giving the 25 million a year... Something Winnipeg would not do... ! Yes, the city of Winnipeg dropped the ball leading up to 1995. But that was not Bettman’s fault. But what it did was make Winnipeg an easy target for Bettman’s expansion dreams in 1995. There is no doubt that if Bettman had allowed organizers to use the team for financing the way they had proposed, Winnipeg would have fixed all the problems over the next 5 years. Bettman kept putting up road blocks in 1995 every time a solution was found. Even paying for losses (like Glendale does now) would not have worked in 1995. Bettman simply would not allow a team to be owned by the NHL while there were investors lining up to set up teams in Minnesota, Phoenix, Kansas City and Atlanta. If you actually took the time to read all this, I’m sorry for how long it was. But I’ve been following this for a long time. Bettman had a choice in 1995 and we know what his choice was. ...no need to be sorry for the length of your post.... I've read longer ones which said next to nothing. So how do we know it was Bettman putting up those so-called roadblocks. Isn't he the spokesperson for the owners who would have still been seething from having to pay outrageous salaries because of the WHA / Haskin / Hull's unheard of salary at the time. Revenge would have been sweet and I'm sure there where owners who would have liked to do more than just steal away our team..... |
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Post by potrzebie on Oct 6, 2011 19:06:28 GMT -6
Here we go, time to rewind and have a little history lesson for some of the Bettman haters here. First of all, I don't like Bettman, I don't like his arrogance, I don't like the way he never answers a question with a straight answer. And I don't like the way he thinks his poop smells rosy. That being said, if you boo him for those reasons then whatever but don't blame him for 1995. I was 21 years old and I lived and breathed Jets at that time. Yes we all know the dollar sucked, we all know that the economy wasn't the greatest, and we all know the arena sucked, but let's go beyond that. For the years leading up to 1995 salaries were spiralling upward with no sign of plateauing. Shenkarow (the original weasel) was losing money and wanted a new arena, very understandable but not a barrier we couldn't get through. Ticket prices started going up and up and people started whining like babies about their lighter wallets. Winnipeg was a cheap city back then and the situation has changed drastically where we now spend our entertainment dollars a lot more freely. People were getting extremely grumpy about paying more while Shenkarow complained about losing money leading to a negative vibe about the Jets BEFORE the threat of relocation became more realistic. We all romanticize the "Save the Jets" campaign and I look back fondly like everyone else, but that doesn't change the fact that there was a lot of off-ice negativity in this City towards the whole Jets situation until we realized that they were leaving. Shenkarow wanted to cash in because he worried the value of the franchise would go down the toilet and there were people in Phoenix who wanted to make him rich. Shenkarow is not David Thompson and the money he'd be getting was massive and hard to turn down for a guy like that. The NHL wasn't stupid and liked the idea of getting into the Phoenix market which was booming. That being said, Shenkarow and the NHL were perfectly fine with leaving the Jets in Winnipeg if there was someone who would pay the piper. There was no "hometown discount", he had a solid offer that was going to line his pocket and the NHL would be moving into a "better market". It was a no-brainer unless someone stepped up with the same money. Lots of negotiations, lots of hard work, lots of emotion, but in the end there was nobody in Winnipeg with the cash willing to step up and pay Shenkarow. There were no politicians willing to cover losses (refer to previously discussed negativity) and in the end nobody local stepped up to the plate. Our local businesses and politicians are the ones to blame for the Jets 1.0 leaving town with a heaping helping of Shenkarow's pockets. Bettman displayed the same amount of effort for us as he did this summer with Atlanta. The similarities are crazy because Bettman saw in Winnipeg this summer the same opportunity he saw in Phoenix 15 years ago. He would be moving into a potentially great market and leaving a headache behind. I'll be at the game Sunday and I honestly don't know how I'll react but one thing I know is that I won't be booing him cuz bottom line is that if Bettman didn't want Winnipeg to get a team back then it wouldn't happen. I lived through that time as well, as many of us did, and I don't think I can completely agree with your description of what happened. For instance, I do believe that there was a "hometown discount" if you will. I can't remember the exact details, but I'm pretty sure a buyer that would keep the team in Winnipeg had the first option at a greatly reduced price. The fact of the matter, as I recall, is that purchasing the team and even getting an arena built could have been done. The problem was the losses that were going to pile up before a new arena could be built. And it is there that some of the creative solutions that were being talked about were effectively kiboshed by Bettman and the NHL. People involved at the time, like Jim Loewen, have stated just how much of a hindrance Bettman was to the negotiations. There is no doubt in my mind that Bettman wanted the team out of Winnipeg at almost any cost. Of course, that is all water under the bridge right now and I still think we should take the high road and give the man a polite ovation, forever proving how much better we are than he was and is. You are correct DKehler. MEC was to purchase the team for $32M. The same price was extended to Spirit of Manitoba after MEC fell apart. After Spirit of Manitoba crashed and burned, the offer from Burke and Gluckstern was for $65M. The team was to be moved to Minnesota but when an arena lease could not be worked out, a deal was reached with Jerry Colangelo to share AWA in Phoenix. But as you say, water under the bridge. Were I lucky enough to have tickets or even be in town I would give him the same applause I would anyone else, no more, no less. |
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Post by lovethejets on Oct 7, 2011 7:41:11 GMT -6
Anyone who boos Bettman doesn't get it....the one to boo is Shenkarow and the existence, at the time, of Winnipeg Enterprises. Boo them, not Bettman....
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Post by Hannu Smail on Oct 7, 2011 7:58:37 GMT -6
Why Shenkarow?
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Post by jetsy2010 on Oct 7, 2011 7:59:13 GMT -6
Yeah, why Shenkarow?
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Post by jjmoohead on Oct 7, 2011 8:02:14 GMT -6
I think the real question is...why the new thread?
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Post by jetsorbust on Oct 7, 2011 8:21:33 GMT -6
There are plenty of reasons to boo Bettman, in my opinion that is really not even up for debate.
The arguement that we should show we're better than him and can act with class even though we don't care for the guy, mostly because Chipman suggested he doesn't want to see Bettman be booed, is the only arguement with any weight.
To say there is no reason to boo him however is just plain wrong, that's not my opinion, that is fact. There are plenty of reasons to do it.
(And no, I haven't changed my mind, I still can't bring myself not to boo him. But I can understand peoples arguements as to why not. I hope people don't cheer him though. Silence I can understand, if the whole arena just went silent that would be awesome but I can't see it happening. To me, if we cheered the weasel THAT would become a bigger story in the papers the next day than if he was booed though, so I hope we don't give him that)
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Post by JayR on Oct 7, 2011 8:32:08 GMT -6
There are plenty of reasons to boo Bettman, in my opinion that is really not even up for debate. The arguement that we should show we're better than him and can act with class even though we don't care for the guy, mostly because Chipman suggested he doesn't want to see Bettman be booed, is the only arguement with any weight. To say there is no reason to boo him however is just plain wrong, that's not my opinion, that is fact. There are plenty of reasons to do it. (And no, I haven't changed my mind, I still can't bring myself not to boo him. But I can understand peoples arguements as to why not. I hope people don't cheer him though. Silence I can understand, if the whole arena just went silent that would be awesome but I can't see it happening. To me, if we cheered the weasel THAT would become a bigger story in the papers the next day than if he was booed though, so I hope we don't give him that) Get off the soapbox - if you think cheering Bettman would be that big a story you need your head examined. The next day is going to be about the crowd, game, events leading up to the game, events after the game, players reaction before and after, and maybe as a short footnote, the Bettman reaction, which I can most likely see being a light cheer, with any of the few boos drowned out due to the euphoria of the day. Your facts are off base my friend...there is not reason to boo him Sunday. He assisted with getting the wheels in motion for a team to relocate here, end of story. 1996 is long gone...thankfully.  |
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Post by USApegger on Oct 7, 2011 8:38:29 GMT -6
Read Lawless and Campbells stories in today's Free Press.
I will be clapping for him
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loogs
1st Line Centre
Posts: 471
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Post by loogs on Oct 7, 2011 8:42:31 GMT -6
..Boo Gary Filmon for not having the nuts to ask for federal funding!!!!... they did it for the Saddledome!
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