vrx
Prospect
Posts: 8
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Post by vrx on Aug 4, 2011 10:44:21 GMT -6
"I don't know why I torture myself by continuing to get involved in this discussion, but I guess I just suffer from an intellectual disability of some kind."
This is the smartest thing I've read so far in regards to this debate.
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Post by dkehler on Aug 4, 2011 11:14:27 GMT -6
I don't know why I torture myself by continuing to get involved in this discussion, but I guess I just suffer from an intellectual disability of some kind. He's been a Jets fan for as long as the Jets were around. He likes the music of the Guess Who, and I'm pretty sure he performed with some of them. It's obvious to anyone who knows more than the lyrics of one song that the song is ironic. The rest of his music clearly speaks of Winnipeg in a positive, reverent tone. No one has to listen to his music; I don't care if any of you do. The lyrics are meant as being ironic and satirical. This is why there aren't characters like Archie Bunker on TV anymore (or why the ones that are, are largely railed against by people). People have such over-stimulated sensibilities that no one is willing to entertain the idea that someone could be saying something non-literal. Again - don't like or listen to his music or agree with anything he says (I certainly don't agree with his position on the logo - he's making the same kind of mistake some of you are), but don't just make blanket statements without at least being mildly informed. I'm sorry about the tone of this post, because I like most of you. I just get frustrated when I sit here, knowing that what people are saying is completely wrong, so I feel compelled to defend him, not because I care that it's a singer I like, but because I hate to see anyone who isn't available to defend themselves get attacked on a personal level, just because someone is disagreeing with their opinion. There's a difference between attacking a specific thing someone is saying, and attacking the person, and it's not evident that this difference is being understood here. For the record, 1979, I have always liked you as a poster, so please don't take what I'm about to write personally. The problem that I have with what you are saying is that I already know what John K Samson says about the lyrics. In fact, I said as much. What I also said was that other than what he says outside of the song, there is nothing evident to me that the lyrics are meant to be taken ironically or satirically. The difference between Archie Bunker and this is that in All in the Family, the joke was always on Archie and the audience was always in on the joke. It was very clear that Archie was the idiot. The song, to me, doesn't give any winks or hints that it's not meant to be taken literally. Having said that, I can see why people like it as it does have a catchiness to it and John K Samson comes across as very thoughtful and intelligent. The other side of that coin is that it's a fine line between that and becoming pretentious and I think he is crossing that line with respect to his thoughts on the logo. Like I said, if you're determined to find something offensive about something, you will find a way to make it sound reasonable and logical. There are many such examples that have already been given with respect to other logos, but that doesn't make the "concerns" any less silly.
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Post by dkehler on Aug 4, 2011 11:21:47 GMT -6
Just to add, The Toronto Maple Leafs are named after a World War I regiment and no one seems to have a problem with that.
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Post by jetsorbust on Aug 4, 2011 11:30:37 GMT -6
Whatever. Good job pushing this towards an ideological debate, though. So he's a "self-loather" because he thinks negatively about the symbolism that the Jets used for their branding? Why do I get the feeling that some people don't like these arguments because they say less then flattering things about the Jets? What the heck is the "I hate Winnipeg" lyric if not self-loathing? Yes, I know he SAYS that it's meant to be ironic, but I still have not been convinced by anybody that this is evident anywhere in the song. This latest diatribe against the logo is just more of the same. If you are determined to overthink it, you can convince yourself to be offended by many team logos. It's just stupid.[/b] Exactly. No logo should be considered offensive, cuz it's just a bloody logo. Therefore, anyone who doesn't like it due to it's tie in with the military, is an idiot, plain and simple! That's seperate from what my thoughts are about anyone who considers pride in the Canadian military to be "offensive"... which only furthers my dislike of anyone who complains about the military tie-in of the logo.
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Post by dkehler on Aug 4, 2011 11:51:30 GMT -6
Also, with respect to self-loathing, the freaking name of the band is the Weakerthans... That says it all.
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1979
Captain "C"
Posts: 671
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Post by 1979 on Aug 4, 2011 12:38:44 GMT -6
The crux of your argument seems to be disagreement over the logo. I agree with you on this point, so I'm not sure what the problem is there. I approve of the logo, and disagree with John K. on that matter. I could point to a great many examples other than the Leafs that would corroborate that point.
On the second point, I'm not sure why you refuse to look beyond the song to seek evidence on John K.'s position on the matter. The rest of the Weakerthans' catalogue is fairly clear. Let me make this argument the way you have: "if you're determined to find something offensive about something, you will find a way to make it sound reasonable and logical". The evidence, outside of the song, is that it's ironic.
Just like with Archie, it's obvious that matter clear it is, someone is going to misinterpret it (there were a great many people who loved Archie because they felt he was RIGHT).
So it goes.
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1979
Captain "C"
Posts: 671
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Post by 1979 on Aug 4, 2011 12:42:51 GMT -6
And the name of the band is a reference to a novel/movie, and the line it is taken from is meant to reveal vulnerability, not self-loathing.
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Post by kbadcjet on Aug 4, 2011 13:56:31 GMT -6
I don't really care what John K. Samson says (or anyone else for that matter) I love the new logo and what it represents.
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Post by dkehler on Aug 4, 2011 14:16:01 GMT -6
The crux of your argument seems to be disagreement over the logo. I agree with you on this point, so I'm not sure what the problem is there. I approve of the logo, and disagree with John K. on that matter. I could point to a great many examples other than the Leafs that would corroborate that point. On the second point, I'm not sure why you refuse to look beyond the song to seek evidence on John K.'s position on the matter. The rest of the Weakerthans' catalogue is fairly clear. Let me make this argument the way you have: "if you're determined to find something offensive about something, you will find a way to make it sound reasonable and logical". The evidence, outside of the song, is that it's ironic. Just like with Archie, it's obvious that matter clear it is, someone is going to misinterpret it (there were a great many people who loved Archie because they felt he was RIGHT). So it goes. I readily admit that I am ignorant about the band's other work. Perhaps you can point me in the direction of some of their other songs about Winnipeg that paint it in a more positive light. I still say that if "One Great City" was always intended to be ironic, there should be some indication of such in that song. Or at least, perhaps, as part of the theme in that particular album, if it has one. An example of what I'm talking about is The Wall, by Pink Floyd. The character of Pink says some pretty awful things that could easily be taken out of context, but there are plenty of clues within the lyrics themselves that we are not meant to be on Pink's side.
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Post by dkehler on Aug 4, 2011 14:17:05 GMT -6
And the name of the band is a reference to a novel/movie, and the line it is taken from is meant to reveal vulnerability, not self-loathing. That is interesting, but the decision to name the band after such a thing very much suggests self-deprecation at the very least.
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Post by NHLWinnipeg on Aug 4, 2011 14:20:30 GMT -6
The song in question:
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Post by jjmoohead on Aug 4, 2011 14:42:50 GMT -6
Again - don't like or listen to his music or agree with anything he says (I certainly don't agree with his position on the logo - he's making the same kind of mistake some of you are), but don't just make blanket statements without at least being mildly informed. You mean kinda like his comment about the logo? You can't defend someone for their opinion when its a blanket statement without being at least mildly informed and then criticize different people for the same sort of thing. His opinion is based on nothing, my opinion is based on his opinion of nothing. I have some of their music, I have seen them play live and enjoyed it. It doesn't change the fact that what he said was stupid at best and his opinion is based on nothing but self teaching and misrepresentation of facts. I always hate the argument that its someones opinion and they are entitled to it, especially when the opinion comes from lies or misinformation. Not speaking about this tools words specifically but stupid opinions in general.
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Post by newjets on Aug 4, 2011 14:52:56 GMT -6
Just to add, The Toronto Maple Leafs are named after a World War I regiment and no one seems to have a problem with that. What about the Calgary Flames? While their name has NO CONNECTION whatsover to either Calgary or Alberta, it still has a lot to do with Atlanta where the franchise was named after a disaster caused by war: The name 'Flames' originated from the burning of Atlanta led by U.S. Army general William Sherman during the American Civil War.
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Post by jjmoohead on Aug 4, 2011 15:27:47 GMT -6
I often wonder if the people that hate on the Jets logo for its implication of military have the same hate for a logo like Chicagos because of its racism. Or maybe New Jersey for its anti God love. I bet they hate Ottawa too because of the military resemblance to Roman history.
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wolf357
Alternate Captain "A"
Posts: 557
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Post by wolf357 on Aug 4, 2011 15:55:30 GMT -6
As a former Member of the Canadian Armed Forces I'm completly fine with someone stating that they dont like the logo beacuse of it being linked to the Canadian Military. The Canadian Military is after all here to defend peoples opinions. I could state that our armed forces are here to defend not the opinions that I share and that hold dear but to the opinions that I disagree with...It is your right to disagree with me. Although I disagree with it, I will defend your right to disagree with it.
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