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Post by bigcanadiano on Aug 5, 2012 23:49:31 GMT -6
100mil
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phreload
Alternate Captain "A"
Section 307 - Row 10 - Seat 4
Posts: 569
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Post by phreload on Aug 6, 2012 7:20:55 GMT -6
Schoolmaster Mike has cleverly left the answer for us to find. Winnipeg was not going to make money from 1995-2007. The dollar was at $.6179 in 2002 and didn't begin it's climb to parity until 2007. Without that, we had zero hope. You could have attempted to create profitability with a new arena but tickets would have been outrageous. I looked up average team salary in 2002 and it was 38M. With exchange rate that's 63M. That meant per game you need 1.5M gate just to cover player salaries. MEC, Shenkarow, Chipman, our local government and investors like Asper all did the same math. It was a no go. So are we better off for losing our team? Sly Mike is really asking are you grateful to be back cause he knows we never had a chance to keep them.
BTW that doesn't mean Bettman and Shenkarow aren't douchebag liars! Shenkarow would have turned into a Hulsizer and Bettman would have made us just as blanked as COG if we has let him.
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Post by Tim on Aug 6, 2012 7:58:05 GMT -6
Before people here keep bashing Barry you need to know on thing, Gary was only allowing this team to stay here if Barry own it. If the team was to be sold it would half to leave Winnipeg. The only way Gary could not control what happened to the Jets was for Barry to retain ownership, why do you think later on Barry wanting to join the group of investors, this way he could make it work. If Barry was so shifty why did Chipman partner up with him with the Moose, who do you think helped bring the Moose to Winnipeg. If you were a businessman and you could make more money in one day then you could make in the next 20 years what would you do, but on the flip side if you kept the team you would probably be bankrupt in two years, because the city and province did not open up there wallets for Barry as they did for the Chipman group. (Barry warned everyone for years this was coming, yet no one listened, except Gary and he show up with a boat load of money) Those comments about Barry were not fair and years ago I felt the same way then I found out more of what went on back then, and I can clearly say If I was Barry back then I would have done the same thing.
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Post by bigcanadiano on Aug 6, 2012 10:14:56 GMT -6
Gary was only allowing this team to stay here if Barry own it. Totally and utterly false. Prove that to me. You can't. You simply cannot prove that. You cannot prove to me that (a) Bettman was intent on keeping the team in Winnipeg or not. (b) This follows 'a' that Shenkarow had his own agenda. (c) Shenkarow was playing both sides of the fence, deliberately. It was his own attempt to bring out the daggers = in order to prevent any purchase of the team NECESSARY. Shenkarow was holding onto this team no matter what, Filmon, Bettman, or Asper would have done. He lawyered up big time to a cost of keeping the team making it privately owned, which he KNEW he could never do. That is the bottom line. Does it make sense. Of course it does.
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Post by TheDeuce on Aug 6, 2012 10:23:01 GMT -6
I believe we could have kept the Jets back in 1995. It would have been tough, but doable.
If Doer and Filmon stood together and said that they, and their parties, jointly supported the construction of a new arena AND both endorsed some deal to cover legitimate losses in the meantime then there would have been no political hay to be made by either side. With that out of the way, we'd have build the Manitoba Entertainment Complex and gone on our merry way. But the organization that would have evolved to this day would not have been, imho, as strong as the organization we have now. In TN we have a top hockey man (Chipman) who's honed his skills in the minors for fifteen years AND the, literally, deepest pockets in Canada providing stability. Shenkarow was never a hockey guy - he started becoming one by way of his involvement with the Jets but he was there by default, not design.
One thing that might have been better if things had worked out is that the MEC proposals all called for 18,000+ seats on a nice big footprint, not a squshy 15,000 tiny footprint MTS Centre like we have. Water under the bridge, as they say.
Our ownership under TN is the envy of much of the league. I don't think we'd say the same thing about the Spirit of Manitoba (there's a name I haven't recalled in years...).
m.
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Post by bigcanadiano on Aug 6, 2012 10:27:50 GMT -6
TN is awesome. I'm not arguing that one minute. This is about Shenkarow. Asper knew how to play Shenkarow's game better than he did. Asper wan't going to be fooled into being a pawn, neither was Filmon. Shenkarow had champagne in secret after this all boiled over. Sure Asper had his name dead to rights, it does not mean he could not have saved the team. No way in gods name could this have not been stopped. Shenkarow knew exactly what he himself was doing. Z'if not.
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Post by TheDeuce on Aug 6, 2012 10:51:23 GMT -6
It's not about Shenkarow - the question is 'Are we stronger for having lost the Jets in 1996?'. Shenkarow is a non sequitur. The fallout of the relocation has no bearing on considering the hypothetical question of what WOULD have happened if the relocation had been avoided and comparing that hypothetical situation to the present, very real, situation.
Without bashing Shenk, what is your take on the question?
m.
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Post by bigcanadiano on Aug 6, 2012 11:26:58 GMT -6
I answered the question. I already believe TN is a better option had we not relocated. I think I make that point, clearly. I also agree that the Manitoba Gardens would have been a much better option than the MTS Centre. To be honest, the MTSC I can live with, it's given me some great memories. But I hardly avoided your question, deuce.
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Post by bigcanadiano on Aug 6, 2012 11:34:01 GMT -6
To watch a team grow like we did last year, to single handedly watch the careers of Bogosian, Wheeler, Pavelec emerge is well worth the 15 years. Players are embracing this, then which is all that matters. What would have Atlanta done for these guys, nothing. Bettman did this thing right.
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phreload
Alternate Captain "A"
Section 307 - Row 10 - Seat 4
Posts: 569
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Post by phreload on Aug 6, 2012 12:11:12 GMT -6
Well, Deuce seeing as you are asking if it was "worth it to end up with a team as strong as we have now", here is my answer. No. Missing out on 15 years, starting with the new owners dumping Teemu early there is now way we are "better off". Jets 2.0 are starting with an empty farm system, which is scandalous considering how many draft picks they had for missing the playoffs so many times. Waddell truly screwed Atlanta. With a dedication to a long term plan of building through the draft, we are on the right track but it will only pay off with superior scouting (we still have most of the Atlanta guys) and some luck with picks. Am I happy about Chipman and Thomson as our owners? Ecstatic. But I don't believe we are any better off than if we had kept the team, so it wasn't worth the agony of losing the Jets the first time.
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phreload
Alternate Captain "A"
Section 307 - Row 10 - Seat 4
Posts: 569
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Post by phreload on Aug 6, 2012 12:17:35 GMT -6
Agree 100% We couldn't possibly be where we are without the entire journey. I've read the book as well and without doubt.... losing the Jets in 96' HAD to happen to get where we are today. WEC was a cancer to the Jets and they frankly had zero hope of remaining without huge government input. COG anyone? Great arena, solid, smart and very wealthy ownership with a core of players with huge potential. Sure, ticket prices are high but it hasn't seemed to affect the passion for people to go to games... and likely won't for at least 5 years. Losing the Jets 1.0 was painful.... but the city, province and fans are now reaping the rewards.
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Post by wolfmannick on Aug 6, 2012 12:51:45 GMT -6
This thread sure got heated in a hurry lol. In the end the Jets are where they belong, in Winnipeg, and that's all that matters right now.
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Post by Tim on Aug 6, 2012 12:59:31 GMT -6
Gary was only allowing this team to stay here if Barry own it. Totally and utterly false. Prove that to me. You can't. You simply cannot prove that. You cannot prove to me that (a) Bettman was intent on keeping the team in Winnipeg or not. (b) This follows 'a' that Shenkarow had his own agenda. (c) Shenkarow was playing both sides of the fence, deliberately. It was his own attempt to bring out the daggers = in order to prevent any purchase of the team NECESSARY. Shenkarow was holding onto this team no matter what, Filmon, Bettman, or Asper would have done. He lawyered up big time to a cost of keeping the team making it privately owned, which he KNEW he could never do. That is the bottom line. Does it make sense. Of course it does. All I can say to you is meet and speak to people who were involved in the deal, Mark won't talk about it because he is back in the circle of trust but there other guys who real know what went on, and Asper and Barrry were business partners in other ventures so they new each other very well. Hey Speak to other people close in the deal and if you believe them they might give you a different outlook on that whole deal. Start with Ross Robinson of BA Robinson many of these meeting were held in his office, that's about as much as I will say.
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Post by shakinallover on Aug 6, 2012 15:02:51 GMT -6
Could they have stayed? Absolutely. Were there potential owners residing in the city who could have privately financed an arena alone or in a partnership? More than certain of that.
-Shenkarow had become a non-entity for any future ownership group, at best a minor player. -Albert Cohen and Izzy Asper became wealthy following their own tried and true business models. Arena management and pro sports were not in the portfolio. -The Chipman group, Loewen, and Robinson were likely willing but did not have the means to go it alone. -We needed a "Thomson" to finance and over-see the model.
We're all grateful of the "return" but as you can read in some posts we're still very bitter they left.
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Post by bigcanadiano on Aug 6, 2012 15:24:53 GMT -6
^+1.
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