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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 18:30:49 GMT -6
He had 1 good playoff run as a forward, and everyone thinks he is some kind of elite winger. The fact is that he has never had more points in a season as a forward than he has on defence. He has had 53 points twice as a dman and in one of those seasons playing only 66 games. The year the Hawks won the cup he played 82 games during the regular season and only had 34 points. Buff is currently scoring at a .7 ppg pace. Over 82 games that is a 57.7 point pace, which would be a career high, he is also currently a +2 right now, in every season but one in his NHL career he was a - player. Even in the Blackhawks cup run Buff was a -2. There is a reason that the only people who bring this up anymore are fans. You can't compare the points that he got as a forward to what he has been getting as a defenceman, so many factors to consider he was younger when he was a forward, and he was a 3rd liner / energy guy How many guys other than buff got 53 points in 66 games last season playing D? The answer is 1, he plays in ottawa. Buff was 2nd in defence scoring while playing at least 10 less games than almost everyone else in the top 20. No credilbe hockey person has been calling for Buff to be moved to forward since early last season and unless you guys on this forum are telling me you know better than all of the hockey experts, he should and will continue to play defence. And before everyone points yet again at his -8 from last season, take a look at Blake Wheeler's +/- from this year compared to his linemates and tell me again how important +/- really is. For those too lazy to look, Wheeler is -7 while Little is +4 and Ladd is +8. Just becasue you get a - doesnt mean it's always becasue you did something wrong. Another great example of +/- meaning nothing, Erik Karlsson was a -30 two years ago while scoring 50 points. Before you blame it on a bad Ottawa team, remember how bad the jets were on Defence last season. Buff is clearly learning to be more defencivly responsible, and it may take a few more seasons but he is improving.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 19:08:19 GMT -6
You can't compare the points that he got as a forward to what he has been getting as a defenceman, so many factors to consider he was younger when he was a forward, and he was a 3rd liner / energy guy How many guys other than buff got 53 points in 66 games last season playing D? The answer is 1, he plays in ottawa. Buff was 2nd in defence scoring while playing at least 10 less games than almost everyone else in the top 20. No credilbe hockey person has been calling for Buff to be moved to forward and unless you guys on this forum are telling me you know better than all of the hockey experts, he should and will continue to play defence. And before everyone points yet again at his -8 from last season, take a look at Blake Wheeler's +/- from this year compared to his linemates and tell me again how important +/- really is. For those too lazy to look, Wheeler is -7 while Little is +4 and Ladd is +8. Just becasue you get a - doesnt mean it's always becasue you did something wrong. It makes a hell of a difference when your playing defence what your plus minus is. I've heard a number of individuals on Hockey Night in Canada talk about him going to forward particularly last year when his minus at some points was in the double digits. Breaking down plus minus as a forward is somewhat different. A defenseman is more apt to play across multiple lines hence comparing a defenceman's stat with a forwards is never fair. If you're a really prolific scorer as a defenceman and have or often are paired with either strong defensive forwards or prolific scorers on offense you're plus minus will naturally be higher. Just look at Paul Coffey typically thought of as a liability defensively was never a minus player until the latter part of his career. He ended up with a career plus 21 though. Go down the history of defencemen that were worth their salt as all around quality defencemen, Chelios, Salming (with those years of struggling Leafs teams), Leetch, etc. all significant plus players. Buff is a liability on defence which should make him more circumspect about running around (and particularly meandering back) and more so when you don't have a lot of big scorers or you have average defensive players. You quoted his points last season? Means little when combined with a team that missed the playoffs the first time he was there, last year, and may or may not make them this year. Hell given how much ice time he got last year one could expect a point advantage given how he plays.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 19:23:24 GMT -6
I love how you blast me for saying +/- doesnt matter and totally skip over the part where I showed Erik Karlsson's +/- 2 years ago when he scored 50 points. It was -30 just so you know, and last season when he had 78 points, he was only a +16.
Some other big - players besides buff from last year, Kolachuck was -9, Iginla -10, Doughty -2, Phaneuf -10, Eric Staal -20, Andrew Ladd -8, Bryan Little -10, Marc Staal -8.
You bring up ice time as the reason buff scored so many points, but he only averaged roughly 40 seconds more time per game than Bogosian last season and scored 20 more points. And if ice time=points why do Bogo and hainsey have 6 and 9 points while averaging over 23 minutes of ice time per game.
Last year is Last year, This season Buff is a +2, while Hainsey, Bogosian, Enstrom, and Postma are all -, there is no Dman on the team with a better +/- or more points than Buff this season.
And you say you've heard people talk about buff playing forward, but that was early last year. He is a +2 right now this season and on his current point pace, he would score a career high 57 points over 82 games this season. Id like you to find one example from the last 12 months of somebody with some real credibility saying buff should be a forward and not a dman.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 19:41:12 GMT -6
I hear it all the time but finding names is pointless because it was said repeatedly in the past and except for sounding like tired refrains people will just leave his defensive problems to speak for themselves. And I never blasted you for saying plus minus doesn't matter I said one should be loathe to compare forwards and defensemen with plus minus although its done from time to time. How is Karlsson doing this year by the way? And that's going to be his lot if he continues to play that way. Career total plus minus by the way is -13 and and I would point out to you his plus minus last year was Plus 16! That shows me he was actually improving as an all around player AND his point total increased by 35 points. So you've made my point thank you.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 19:48:43 GMT -6
I hear it all the time but finding names is pointless because it was said repeatedly in the past and except for sounding like tired refrains people will just leave his defensive problems to speak for themselves. And I never blasted you for saying plus minus doesn't matter I said one should be loathe to compare forwards and defensemen with plus minus although its done from time to time. How is Karlsson doing this year by the way? And that's going to be his lot if he continues to play that way. Career total plus minus by the way is -13 and and I would point out to you his plus minus last year was Plus 16! That shows me he was actually improving as an all around player AND his point total increased by 35 points. So you've made my point thank you. Ok so Buff is on pace for a career high for points this season over 82 games and is currently tied for highest +/- for dmen on the team. That is a pretty big impromvent from last season. Dion Phanuef was a -10 last season and is -9 this season, are you telling me Phanuef is a bad dman too and should be moved to forward? Or how about Drew Doughty, -1 last season, -2 this season playing on the team that won the stanley cup. Keith Yandle in Phoenix is a -3 this season, is he worse than buff too? There are currently 6 dmen in the NHL with more points than Buff, 3 of them have a lower +/- than buff. One of them is Ryan Suter who has 8 more points than buff is a -1 and averaging over 2 minutes more in ice time per game than Buff and has played 3 more games.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 20:01:36 GMT -6
Dion Phaneuf? This is a guy who's played with two teams his career and neither have been successful. So what's your point. Sounds like he is a liability to his teams as Toronto is about as porous defensively a team that has 21 teams better than them in GA. So I wouldn't be using Phaneuf as an example. Doughty's a plus 11 career with LA so what's your point? That last year, they got hot with a hotter goaltender even though they just made the playoffs? No point there.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 20:05:25 GMT -6
Dion Phaneuf? This is a guy who's played with two teams his career and neither have been successful. So what's your point. Sounds like he is a liability to his teams as Toronto is about as porous defensively a team that has 21 teams better than them in GA. So I wouldn't be using Phaneuf as an example. Doughty's a plus 11 career with LA so what's your point? That last year, they got hot with a hotter goaltender even though they just made the playoffs? No point there. Ok so then forget last season and explain to me why buff needs to be moved to forward when he is 6th in dman scoring and a +2 on a team with no other top 4 dman above 0. Bogosian, Hainsey, Enstrom Postma are all - and Stuart is +1. You said eariler Buff only scores so much becasue he gets 24 minutes of ice time, but making him a 2nd or 3rd line winger will take away 10 minutes of that ice time. If he only scores becasue of his ice time, then his point totals are going to drasticlly drop when he moves to forward. Buff was a 3rd line winger on the Blackhawks when they won the cup, and he has scored 53 points twice as a dman and is finally becoming a smarter player, choosing his spots to rush and learning to play better d. Why switch him to forward when he is finally learning and in a couple of years he could be an elite dman.
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Post by bcmike on Mar 23, 2013 20:11:37 GMT -6
I personally think Buff is being over used.
He's gassed at the end of every shift , so how is moving him to forward going to solve anything?
His fatigue is whats causing these mental errors (giveaways, etc) . If you notice at the beginning of the season he looked lock a rock on defense with very few turnovers. As time has marched on and he's been used up to 30 minutes a night he's gotten worse and worse.
Noel needs to manage his minutes better, but may not have a choice given how thin we are on D.
So we're thin on the blue line and roll basically once scoring line and whatever Kane can do on the second when he's not double teamed. So trust me, Buff is not getting moved up front any time soon, nor should he.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 20:14:09 GMT -6
Buff also leads the team in PP goals this season, all 3 of which were scored from the point.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 20:16:43 GMT -6
I personally think Buff is being over used. He's gassed at the end of every shift , so how is moving him to forward going to solve anything? His fatigue is whats causing these mental errors (giveaways, etc) . If you notice at the beginning of the season he looked lock a rock on defense with very few turnovers. As time has marched on and he's been used up to 30 minutes a night he's gotten worse and worse. Noel needs to manage his minutes better, but may not have a choice given how thin we are on D. So we're thin on the blue line and roll basically once scoring line and whatever Kane can do on the second when he's not double teamed. So trust me, Buff is not getting moved up front any time soon, nor should he. This should improve slightly when Toby Enstrom comes back, and also Noel has been leaving buff out there for the full 2 minutes on too many PPs latley. I get that our teams PP is not clicking, but it is probably one of the reasons Buff has looked tired latley.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 20:19:06 GMT -6
If you'll look at my original post you'll see that I said the point is moot since he does not want to go to the forward position. What that means then is that he has to clean up defensively which I also noted he has made some improvement on. So I think you missed my point. As he was playing up to and including last year he has always been a minus player. I don't know how much that says so we can only judge him from the Thrashers going forward and what we see on the ice is many times problematic defensively. It's no coincidence our "best defenseman" after these last two games was a total -3.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 20:27:16 GMT -6
Buff has said he doesnt want to play forward, but that isnt the reason that they are not playing him there. They tried him in front of the net on the PP this season and if failed horribly, they clearly feel they can teach him to become a solid dman, and ive heard more times in the last year that if he does improve he could easily be a norris candidate than ive heard people calling for him to be moved to forward.
Buff will never be moved to forward for the Winnipeg Jets, and he shouldnt be.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 20:34:52 GMT -6
Buff has said he doesnt want to play forward, but that isnt the reason that they are not playing him there. They tried him in front of the net on the PP this season and if failed horribly, they clearly feel they can teach him to become a solid dman, and ive heard more times in the last year that if he does improve he could easily be a norris candidate than ive heard people calling for him to be moved to forward. Buff will never be moved to forward for the Winnipeg Jets, and he shouldnt be. I don't think you can predict his failure because he never developed fully at forward so it's unfair to state he would be a failure. He wasn't when they changed him up in Chicago and in fact was a substantial reason why they got a Stanley Cup because he parked his big body in front of goaltenders and caused them fits. Again, the discussion is moot for the Jets because as long as he is here he will insist and stay as a defenceman. But his time has to be managed properly and he has to continue to develop as player in better decision making.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 20:46:16 GMT -6
Buff has said he doesnt want to play forward, but that isnt the reason that they are not playing him there. They tried him in front of the net on the PP this season and if failed horribly, they clearly feel they can teach him to become a solid dman, and ive heard more times in the last year that if he does improve he could easily be a norris candidate than ive heard people calling for him to be moved to forward. Buff will never be moved to forward for the Winnipeg Jets, and he shouldnt be. I don't think you can predict his failure because he never developed fully at forward so it's unfair to state he would be a failure. He wasn't when they changed him up in Chicago and in fact was a substantial reason why they got a Stanley Cup because he parked his big body in front of goaltenders and caused them fits. Again, the discussion is moot for the Jets because as long as he is here he will insist and stay as a defenceman. But his time has to be managed properly and he has to continue to develop as player in better decision making. Again you say as long as he is here he wont play forward becasuse he doesnt want to. You are making it sound like the jets have been trying to move him since day 1 and he refuses. The only time Noel mentioned him playing forward was one time when he said Buff didnt want to. Nobody has ever reported that the Jets have even asked him to and he was willing to play forward on the PP this season. I also didnt predict it would be a failure, I just pointed out that when they tried to use him in the role he did so well in Chicago on the PP this year, it didnt work at all. The Discussion is moot becasue Buff is a Dman and every indication from the Jets says they want him to be a Dman.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 20:58:51 GMT -6
Again you say as long as he is here he wont play forward becasuse he doesnt want to. You are making it sound like the jets have been trying to move him since day 1 and he refuses.
I made no such assertion. Don't put words in my mouth. But if you think they haven't heard the criticism you're very naive. I have no doubt they have had discussions though to suggest otherwise is equally naive. It's not hard to speculate that the issue has not passed across their thought processes and been the subject last year. That's quite different from your poor generalization of what I said or meant.
I disagree that it didn't work putting him in front of the net. They barely tried it. Indeed their power play is piss poor anything is better than what they have going now.
I would also point out to you that the wiki assessment of him as a forward is positive which is why people keep insisting on his use that way. For example:
Originally a defenseman at the start of the 2007–08 season, he was moved to a right wing position to give the team a larger body near the net, an experiment that proved successful. In the 2010-2011 All-Star Game's Skill Competition his slap shot was clocked at 102.5 mph. The forward excelled in his third professional season, becoming the first Rockford IceHogs player to earn the American Hockey League's Player of the Week award, when he scored one goal and had five assists in four games. Byfuglien had seven points in eight games with Rockford. Byfuglien earned a recall on November 3 to the Chicago Blackhawks and never returned to the IceHogs. He had a goal in his first shift with the Blackhawks in the 2007–08 NHL season on November 3 against the St. Louis Blues and recorded his first career hat trick (three goals in one game) against the Phoenix Coyotes on November 30. He finished tied for fifth on the team with 19 goals and 36 points in his third season with the team, all while making a transition to forward throughout the campaign.
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