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Post by lovethejets on Mar 23, 2013 21:30:49 GMT -6
I love how you blast me for saying +/- doesnt matter and totally skip over the part where I showed Erik Karlsson's +/- 2 years ago when he scored 50 points. It was -30 just so you know, and last season when he had 78 points, he was only a +16. Some other big - players besides buff from last year, Kolachuck was -9, Iginla -10, Doughty -2, Phaneuf -10, Eric Staal -20, Andrew Ladd -8, Bryan Little -10, Marc Staal -8. You bring up ice time as the reason buff scored so many points, but he only averaged roughly 40 seconds more time per game than Bogosian last season and scored 20 more points. And if ice time=points why do Bogo and hainsey have 6 and 9 points while averaging over 23 minutes of ice time per game. Last year is Last year, This season Buff is a +2, while Hainsey, Bogosian, Enstrom, and Postma are all -, there is no Dman on the team with a better +/- or more points than Buff this season. And you say you've heard people talk about buff playing forward, but that was early last year. He is a +2 right now this season and on his current point pace, he would score a career high 57 points over 82 games this season. Id like you to find one example from the last 12 months of somebody with some real credibility saying buff should be a forward and not a dman. well for blasting everyone else here as being only "fans", i am glad you are only one as well....the sample size of him playing forward is too small to make any rational judgement...he has tremendous offensive skill and gives the puck up OFTEN on d....why are you fighting it so hard?....he has amazing offensive skill, we all agree on that but I think we also all agree that he has been a turnover machine lately....managememt needs to stand up to him, play him at forward and watch the points roll in!...then he won't have to get tired with long shifts and won't be a liability in our end as well...
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 21:45:16 GMT -6
I love how you blast me for saying +/- doesnt matter and totally skip over the part where I showed Erik Karlsson's +/- 2 years ago when he scored 50 points. It was -30 just so you know, and last season when he had 78 points, he was only a +16. Some other big - players besides buff from last year, Kolachuck was -9, Iginla -10, Doughty -2, Phaneuf -10, Eric Staal -20, Andrew Ladd -8, Bryan Little -10, Marc Staal -8. You bring up ice time as the reason buff scored so many points, but he only averaged roughly 40 seconds more time per game than Bogosian last season and scored 20 more points. And if ice time=points why do Bogo and hainsey have 6 and 9 points while averaging over 23 minutes of ice time per game. Last year is Last year, This season Buff is a +2, while Hainsey, Bogosian, Enstrom, and Postma are all -, there is no Dman on the team with a better +/- or more points than Buff this season. And you say you've heard people talk about buff playing forward, but that was early last year. He is a +2 right now this season and on his current point pace, he would score a career high 57 points over 82 games this season. Id like you to find one example from the last 12 months of somebody with some real credibility saying buff should be a forward and not a dman. well for blasting everyone else here as being only "fans", i am glad you are only one as well....the sample size of him playing forward is too small to make any rational judgement...he has tremendous offensive skill and gives the puck up OFTEN on d....why are you fighting it so hard?....he has amazing offensive skill, we all agree on that but I think we also all agree that he has been a turnover machine lately....managememt needs to stand up to him, play him at forward and watch the points roll in!...then he won't have to get tired with long shifts and won't be a liability in our end as well... Again with this managment needs to stand up to him BS, the guy is a blanking defencman and never once has anyone said that they have heard TNSE has asked buff to play forward and that he flat out refused. The only time Noel commented on buff at forward was last year when a reporter asked him about it early in the season and Noel said buff likes playing D. He has caused as many turnovers this season as he has commited, and as far as saying im just a fan too, that is true but the real hockey experts who run the jets have him playing forward. If they truely felt he hurt the team more than he helped playing defence they would force him to play forward, they tried it on the PP this year and it failed. There is no evidence that the team wants him to play forward and there is no reason for them to move him.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 21:52:37 GMT -6
Again you say as long as he is here he wont play forward becasuse he doesnt want to. You are making it sound like the jets have been trying to move him since day 1 and he refuses.I made no such assertion. Don't put words in my mouth. But if you think they haven't heard the criticism you're very naive. I have no doubt they have had discussions though to suggest otherwise is equally naive. It's not hard to speculate that the issue has not passed across their thought processes and been the subject last year. That's quite different from your poor generalization of what I said or meant. I disagree that it didn't work putting him in front of the net. They barely tried it. Indeed their power play is piss poor anything is better than what they have going now. I would also point out to you that the wiki assessment of him as a forward is positive which is why people keep insisting on his use that way. For example: Originally a defenseman at the start of the 2007–08 season, he was moved to a right wing position to give the team a larger body near the net, an experiment that proved successful. In the 2010-2011 All-Star Game's Skill Competition his slap shot was clocked at 102.5 mph.The forward excelled in his third professional season, becoming the first Rockford IceHogs player to earn the American Hockey League's Player of the Week award, when he scored one goal and had five assists in four games. Byfuglien had seven points in eight games with Rockford. Byfuglien earned a recall on November 3 to the Chicago Blackhawks and never returned to the IceHogs. He had a goal in his first shift with the Blackhawks in the 2007–08 NHL season on November 3 against the St. Louis Blues and recorded his first career hat trick (three goals in one game) against the Phoenix Coyotes on November 30. He finished tied for fifth on the team with 19 goals and 36 points in his third season with the team, all while making a transition to forward throughout the campaign. So a couple of pretty good years of playing forward is a sucess, I would say that the last 2.5 years since he was moved back to defence were a success. 125 points in 174 games and a -7 playing defence for a team that finished bottom 10 in the league twice in the last 2.5 seasons could never be called failure. Noel is the type of coach who will cut a guys ice time if he doesnt like his game. Buff leads the team in average TOI at over 24 minutes. If you move him to forward either Hainsey or Bogosian needs to take that time. Both of those guys are averaging 23 minutes a game. If one of them moves up somebody from the 3rd pairing needs to jump up. The logical choice would be Stuart. Stuart is averaging under 17 minutes per game this season, and he isnt the type of guy who should be playing 23 minutes a game. We dont have the depth that some on here think we do, we would have nobody ready to take a huge step up in ice time like that.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 21:57:25 GMT -6
Again you say as long as he is here he wont play forward becasuse he doesnt want to. You are making it sound like the jets have been trying to move him since day 1 and he refuses.I made no such assertion. Don't put words in my mouth. But if you think they haven't heard the criticism you're very naive. I have no doubt they have had discussions though to suggest otherwise is equally naive. It's not hard to speculate that the issue has not passed across their thought processes and been the subject last year. That's quite different from your poor generalization of what I said or meant. I disagree that it didn't work putting him in front of the net. They barely tried it. Indeed their power play is piss poor anything is better than what they have going now. I would also point out to you that the wiki assessment of him as a forward is positive which is why people keep insisting on his use that way. For example: Originally a defenseman at the start of the 2007–08 season, he was moved to a right wing position to give the team a larger body near the net, an experiment that proved successful. In the 2010-2011 All-Star Game's Skill Competition his slap shot was clocked at 102.5 mph.The forward excelled in his third professional season, becoming the first Rockford IceHogs player to earn the American Hockey League's Player of the Week award, when he scored one goal and had five assists in four games. Byfuglien had seven points in eight games with Rockford. Byfuglien earned a recall on November 3 to the Chicago Blackhawks and never returned to the IceHogs. He had a goal in his first shift with the Blackhawks in the 2007–08 NHL season on November 3 against the St. Louis Blues and recorded his first career hat trick (three goals in one game) against the Phoenix Coyotes on November 30. He finished tied for fifth on the team with 19 goals and 36 points in his third season with the team, all while making a transition to forward throughout the campaign. So a couple of pretty good years of playing forward is a sucess, I would say that the last 2.5 years since he was moved back to defence were a success. 125 points in 174 games and a -7 playing defence for a team that finished bottom 10 in the league twice in the last 2.5 seasons could never be called failure. He's played like Crap defensively so if you want to judge him as a defenceman because he thinks he has the freedom to run around amok and score go ahead. I think he stinks defensively and I'd gladly trade half of those points for him cleaning up the mess he leaves for others to clean up.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 21:59:34 GMT -6
So a couple of pretty good years of playing forward is a sucess, I would say that the last 2.5 years since he was moved back to defence were a success. 125 points in 174 games and a -7 playing defence for a team that finished bottom 10 in the league twice in the last 2.5 seasons could never be called failure. He's played like crap defensively so if you want to judge him as a defenceman because he thinks he has the freedom to run around amok and score go ahead. I think he stinks defensively and I'd gladly trade half of those points for him cleaning up the mess he leaves for others to clean up. The fact that you think he has been crap defencivly since moving to defence tells me everything I need to know, im done debating this with you becasue you clearly know jack Crap about the game of hockey and only see the occasional turnover and nothing else.
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 22:06:01 GMT -6
He's played like crap defensively so if you want to judge him as a defenceman because he thinks he has the freedom to run around amok and score go ahead. I think he stinks defensively and I'd gladly trade half of those points for him cleaning up the mess he leaves for others to clean up. The fact that you think he has been crap defencivly since moving to defence tells me everything I need to know, im done debating this with you becasue you clearly know jack crap about the game of hockey and only see the occasional turnover and nothing else. You know little about sound and all around good defenceman. What you envision concerning what a good defenceman is, is a guy running around and creating numerous liabilities for his teammates but thats ok as long as he get points. That is inconsistent with the notion of an all around good defenceman and inconsistent with team play. More like a guy wanting to pad his statistics.
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Post by JordyRamone on Mar 23, 2013 22:42:30 GMT -6
He's played like crap defensively so if you want to judge him as a defenceman because he thinks he has the freedom to run around amok and score go ahead. I think he stinks defensively and I'd gladly trade half of those points for him cleaning up the mess he leaves for others to clean up. The fact that you think he has been crap defencivly since moving to defence tells me everything I need to know, im done debating this with you becasue you clearly know jack crap about the game of hockey and only see the occasional turnover and nothing else. craps getting heated!! Are you both drunk?
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Post by lenny on Mar 23, 2013 23:01:53 GMT -6
You should take a look at the top 1000 plus minus defenceman which includes past and present players. Buyfuglien is not even on the list as his plus minus is too low and has been since his career started. Even Clitsome is on the list. Lol!
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 23:21:59 GMT -6
You should take a look at the top 1000 plus minus defenceman which includes past and present players. Buyfuglien is not even on the list as his plus minus is too low and has been since his career started. Even Clitsome is on the list. Lol! Last one This is your dumbest stat yet, +/- isnt everything. Ron Hainsey is a career -23 and I dont see you calling him out as a useless dman who cant play the position. Buff is in the top 250 for scoring by a dman all time, 234 to be exact. Thomas Kaberle is 44th in career points by a dman all time, he has a career +/- of 17. Ed Jovanovski is 58th all time in points, his career +/- is -17. Randy Carlyle scored over 600 points in the NHL and won a Norris, his career +/- was -135. Phil blank ing Housley was a career -53, the blank ing guy scored over 1200 points in the NHL Rob Blake, career -4. Dan Boyle of the SJ sharks, career -26. There are plently of really good Offensive dmen who had bad career +/- numbers. I never said Buff was a great 2 way or defencive dman, but he is improving in those areas and he is easily top 5 for offensive dmen in the league over the last 3 seasons. And since you love +/- so much let me hit you with one more example of why +/- means jack crap. 2010-2011 Buff 53 points -2 Lindstrom 62 points -2 +/- DOESNT MEAN JACK Crap WHEN IT COMES TO OFFENSIVE DMEN
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 23:32:38 GMT -6
But sure, keep trying to explain why +/- means so blanking much. I mean like you said, Clitsome is in the top 1000, Housley isnt. I guess Clitsome is the better dman right?
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Post by staceyleigh6387 on Mar 23, 2013 23:36:24 GMT -6
Seriously how any times do we need to disgust this. ENOUGH ALL RIGHTY!
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 23, 2013 23:36:41 GMT -6
A few more
Roman Hamerlk, 1390 NHL games, career -49
Dave Babych 1195 games, over 700 points, career -223
Want to tell me again why Buff being a career -23 is so blanking important.
People are going to need to use more than career +/- to say buff should play forward. The coach at any time could move him to forward if he wanted. Sure it would upset buff, but Noel has the power to pick who plays where, he could have Hainsey dress as a 1st line center if he wanted.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 24, 2013 0:17:55 GMT -6
Ill give everyone another stat to look at, His giveaways vs takeaways.
This season his is 1st on the team in giveaways with 35, 2nd on the team in takeaways with 19. 10 of those 35 giveaways occured in the last 6 games, 3 of which we won. 35 and 19 gives him a difference of 16, Hainsey has 20 giveaways and only 7 takeaways for a difference of 13.
Last season he had 55 giveaways and 49 takeaways, almost even. As a comparison, last season Mark Stuart had 43 giveaways and only 7 takeaways, that is by far the worst on the team, Ron Hainsey had 33 giveaways and 10 takeaways, and buff played almost 20 less games than most of those guys, his takeaways would have been closer to 2010-2011 if he played the full year.
Lets go back 2 seasons, Buff had 59 giveaways, 6 more than 2nd place. But he also had 85 takeaways which was 40 more than any dman on the team.
The league leader for dmen in takeaways is at 23, Buff is in 4th at 19. Kris Letang has 32 giveaways this season and only 9 takeaways, which is a 23 giveaway to takeaway difference comapered to buffs 16. Brent Seabrook is at 29 giveaways and 13 takeaways for a difference of 16, the same as Buff. Zdeno Chara is 21 and 5, again a difference of 16.
Tell me again how Buff is some kind of turnover machince who cant play defence.
Those stats says way more about buff as a dman than anything else, and there is clearly something wrong in the last 6 games that caused him to have such high giveaway numbers, becasue he didnt just forget how to hold onto the puck in the last 6 games.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 24, 2013 0:31:24 GMT -6
Another stat from last season for giveaway/takeaway.
Erik Karlsson had 84 giveaways and 67 takeaways, he won a norris and his difference was 17.
Buff finsished 5th in the league in takeaways with 49 takeaways, he only had 55 giveaways for a difference of 6.
In 2010-2011, Buff Finished with 59 giveaways and 85 takeaways. 2nd place for takeaways was Shea Weber who finished with 63, and had 51 giveaways.
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Post by jetsv2 on Mar 24, 2013 0:36:34 GMT -6
Clearly Buff is pretty damn good at taking the puck off of other guys, he has been right up near the top of the league in the giveaway/takeaway department for the last 3 seasons. But I guess that cant be true because Buff is a terrible dman, all he does is turn the puck over and make mistakes.
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