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Post by lenny on Jul 29, 2014 10:08:43 GMT -6
Thou dost protest too strongly? Simply clarifying your repeated mistake. ...Or reinforce your own? Notice the question marks?
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 29, 2014 10:11:08 GMT -6
Simply clarifying your repeated mistake. ...Or reinforce your own? Notice the question marks? No
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Post by lenny on Jul 29, 2014 10:11:57 GMT -6
...Or reinforce your own? Notice the question marks? No Yes
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 29, 2014 10:13:19 GMT -6
Yes ... can we move on now?
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Post by lenny on Jul 29, 2014 10:13:43 GMT -6
Yes ... can we move on now? No?
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 10:18:10 GMT -6
Sorry I got my plugs mixed up.
(Although yes that Slater deal isn't very good).
Meant Thorburn.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 10:23:42 GMT -6
Don't you find it a bit odd that you continually defend Chevy in regards to things like this and no one backs you up? I gave you the list of goalies that have been available over the last 3 offseasons (which you clearly ignored, as some of it extended back to the 2012 offseaon) that the Jets could have gotten at a much cheaper cost with less term, that would have produced better results that Pavelec. The Jets even had a chance to move on from that awful contract (let alone never agree to it) multiple times. Never did. You keep harping on losing the pick that resulted in Trouba. Why? None of the goalies that I listed that were traded recently involved anything close to a first-round pick. The Jets held the chips because a) Pavelec had been a mediocre/below-average goalie to that point in his career and had regressed sharply from his career-high the previous season (which was barely above league average as it was) b) His previous 2-year contract was $1.15M per season. c) He was an RFA. His options were literally go to arbitration, play under the tender, or not play in the NHL that year (either completely sit out or go play in Europe). The Jets ended up increasing his yearly AAV by 223% and increased his term by 150% after he posted a .906 save %. No result of arbitration would have given him the amount he ended up with, and likely not the term as well (considering Pavelec would qualify for UFA after this season were his contract to run out). Want to know how absurd that number is? It's literally a bigger percent increase in salary than Carey Price got from his second contract to his third. The Canadiens gave him a 136% increase. Rask's third contract (which to be fair was only one year) was a 180% increase over his second. It was a bigger increase than Lundqvist got from his second to his third (62%). And if you're going to say "But he was the clear starter, the Jets had no one else!" again, why were the Blackhawks able to sign Crawford to $2.67M for 3 years when they were in the exact same situation? And Christ what about the highway robbery Nashville got with Rinne for 3 years? Literally signed him to a $725k, 1-year contract after he posted a .917 in 52 games, or that his next contract was $3.4M, 2-years when at that point not only was he one of the best goaltenders in the league but he was a free agent when they signed him to those contracts! The Jets got taken for a ride. Possibly the only worse contract they've given out is Jim Slater's new one, and maybe Bogosian's if he never actually develops. I get I get it. You and Lenny have realistic beliefs in that Chevy should of turned a team that made the playoffs once in its existence into at least a Stanley Cup contender... If not a Cup winner, in 3 seasons or less. I'm foolish to not agree. 2014/15 - The official return of the "White Out"!! Oh cool, another reply that's just a deflection.
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 29, 2014 10:25:17 GMT -6
Sorry I got my plugs mixed up. (Although yes that Slater deal isn't very good). Meant Thorburn. Ok, I figured as much. I am curious to see that Goalie list though. I realize its not a quick thing to do.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 11:12:14 GMT -6
Lenny, would you be satisified if the Jets made the playoffs one year and there were garbage again right after? Would you be satisifed with that? We could go the way of the leafs. Trade away all our future to get a guy, struggle to get into the playoffs, finally make it and lose historically in game 7 just to be garbage again. Thats the route we would have had to go. Thats not what I want personally. Also to Chem, of all those goalies, which ones were available in 2012 when Pavs signed a 5 year deal. (Yes it was too long, but Chevy did take a chance that later bit him in the ass and many fans are pissed at him for it today (oddly enough the same thing people are wishing he did with Frolik in paying him what he wanted for the years he wanted). I am also curious what those guys are signed for today and what kind of impact they have on their team now. I kinda see the other goalies mentioned irrelevant at this point because they were not necessarily available at the time of the signing or at the value they were picked up for now. EDIT: Also which new Jim Slater deal? He was signed in 2012 at 1.6 for 3 years. I mentioned all goalies I feel the Jets realistically had a chance of getting (hence no mention of Ryan Miller) in the last 3 offseasons and any point during the 12-13 and 13-14 seasons, just because even after signing him for that terrible deal, the Jets still were granted the gift of using a compliance buyout on him not once but twice. And then they go and say Pavelec "can't be properly evaluated" (even after 3 years, seriously?) until the team (or was it defense?) in front of him gets fixed...effectively throwing everyone not named Pavelec under the bus, and cementing that no matter what the Jets are now stuck with this contract until its bitter end. So now they're at a point where they still have Pavelec, a goalie with an extremely small NHL-level sample size (Hutchinson), two guys who clearly aren't even ready for the AHL (Olkinuora and Comrie), and a goalie who has dominated in college but is a complete unknown at any other level (Hellebuyck). Anyways I'll get the goalie thing, give me a few.
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Post by wolfmannick on Jul 29, 2014 11:17:27 GMT -6
Right now its about developing through the draft and locking up our core players long term. So far we have drafted and developed well now over the next two years we will see if we can lock up our big guys like Frolik, Ladd and Buff. If we lose them THAT is a big problem.
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Post by lenny on Jul 29, 2014 11:26:58 GMT -6
Lenny, would you be satisified if the Jets made the playoffs one year and there were garbage again right after? Would you be satisifed with that? We could go the way of the leafs. Trade away all our future to get a guy, struggle to get into the playoffs, finally make it and lose historically in game 7 just to be garbage again. Thats the route we would have had to go. Thats not what I want personally. Also to Chem, of all those goalies, which ones were available in 2012 when Pavs signed a 5 year deal. (Yes it was too long, but Chevy did take a chance that later bit him in the ass and many fans are pissed at him for it today (oddly enough the same thing people are wishing he did with Frolik in paying him what he wanted for the years he wanted). I am also curious what those guys are signed for today and what kind of impact they have on their team now. I kinda see the other goalies mentioned irrelevant at this point because they were not necessarily available at the time of the signing or at the value they were picked up for now. EDIT: Also which new Jim Slater deal? He was signed in 2012 at 1.6 for 3 years. I mentioned all goalies I feel the Jets realistically had a chance of getting (hence no mention of Ryan Miller) in the last 3 offseasons and any point during the 12-13 and 13-14 seasons, just because even after signing him for that terrible deal, the Jets still were granted the gift of using a compliance buyout on him not once but twice. And then they go and say Pavelec "can't be properly evaluated" (even after 3 years, seriously?) until the team (or was it defense?) in front of him gets fixed...effectively throwing everyone not named Pavelec under the bus, and cementing that no matter what the Jets are now stuck with this contract until its bitter end. So now they're at a point where they still have Pavelec, a goalie with an extremely small NHL-level sample size (Hutchinson), two guys who clearly aren't even ready for the AHL (Olkinuora and Comrie), and a goalie who has dominated in college but is a complete unknown at any other level (Hellebuyck). Anyways I'll get the goalie thing, give me a few. I think it's all in the philosophy which Chevy was going to employ. Since his point was that the Jets were going to develop by the draft the existing players could only be transitional players while that development took place. If that was the case, than instead of signing a mediocre goalie to a multi-year multi-million dollar deal after one season either sign him to a 1 year deal to further evaluate him and buy time for our own developmental process or trade him away (given what he was asking for) and look at the pool of cheap UFAs after the 2012 season. You then have at least a cheap mediocre goalie rather than an expensive one and that guy would share duties with what would have been Montoya. Take your pick but keeping in mind you are getting guys like Hutchinson, Comrie, etc. and developing and evaluating them yourself while you're being consistent with your philosophy: Alex Auld, Ottawa Senators, $1,000,000 Johan Backlund, Philadelphia Flyers, $800,000 Ty Conklin, Detroit Red Wings, $750,000 Yann Danis, Edmonton Oilers, $650,000 Andrew Raycroft, Dallas Stars, $650,000 Brent Johnson, Pittsburgh Penguins, $600,000 Curtis Sanford, Columbus Blue Jackets, $600,000 (signed in Europe) Nathan Lawson, Montreal Canadiens, $550,000 Mike McKenna, Ottawa Senators, $550,000 Jason Bacashihua, Philadelphia Flyers, $525,000 Matt Climie, Vancouver Canucks, $525,000 David Leggio, Buffalo Sabres, $525,000 Drew Macintyre, Buffalo Sabres, $525,000 Scott Munroe, Pittsburgh Penguins, $525,000 Dany Sabourin, Washington Capitals, $525,000 No RFAs there and keeping in mind the deals available from time to time as the season progresses as you've pointed out.
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Post by jjmoohead on Jul 29, 2014 11:30:11 GMT -6
Lenny, would you be satisified if the Jets made the playoffs one year and there were garbage again right after? Would you be satisifed with that? We could go the way of the leafs. Trade away all our future to get a guy, struggle to get into the playoffs, finally make it and lose historically in game 7 just to be garbage again. Thats the route we would have had to go. Thats not what I want personally. Also to Chem, of all those goalies, which ones were available in 2012 when Pavs signed a 5 year deal. (Yes it was too long, but Chevy did take a chance that later bit him in the ass and many fans are pissed at him for it today (oddly enough the same thing people are wishing he did with Frolik in paying him what he wanted for the years he wanted). I am also curious what those guys are signed for today and what kind of impact they have on their team now. I kinda see the other goalies mentioned irrelevant at this point because they were not necessarily available at the time of the signing or at the value they were picked up for now. EDIT: Also which new Jim Slater deal? He was signed in 2012 at 1.6 for 3 years. I mentioned all goalies I feel the Jets realistically had a chance of getting (hence no mention of Ryan Miller) in the last 3 offseasons and any point during the 12-13 and 13-14 seasons, just because even after signing him for that terrible deal, the Jets still were granted the gift of using a compliance buyout on him not once but twice. And then they go and say Pavelec "can't be properly evaluated" (even after 3 years, seriously?) until the team (or was it defense?) in front of him gets fixed...effectively throwing everyone not named Pavelec under the bus, and cementing that no matter what the Jets are now stuck with this contract until its bitter end. So now they're at a point where they still have Pavelec, a goalie with an extremely small NHL-level sample size (Hutchinson), two guys who clearly aren't even ready for the AHL (Olkinuora and Comrie), and a goalie who has dominated in college but is a complete unknown at any other level (Hellebuyck). Anyways I'll get the goalie thing, give me a few. It is an interesting point of view that is for sure. Personally to go against your ideas I will say this though. There is zero chance of a buy out after first year of the deal. The amount of money left on that deal in a buyout would have taken away any kind of profit made by the Jets. In their first year in the league that is simply not going to happen. I would argue the same thing about the 2nd year especially when you consider it was a short season. Could there have been a buy out this year, sure, there could have been, but I still don't see we will ever see a buyout with 4 million contracts in our market. At least I personally hope not, its not good for Jets business. The end of his first year and the second year of the deal also follows the ideas of a building team with many holes. The argument of poor team defense was a legit one early in Pavelec's time in Winnipeg and really his time in Atlanta too. Is it legit after year 3, no not nearly as much, but there is some stats out there to say he is over worked. (but easily debated) Why do I say this? Well, I get your argument of other goalies and their options. But in 2012 when the contract was signed, many of your list didn't exist and we cant say those goalies would go for those prices. Jets definitely over paid Pav, but at that contract time it is what we had, and we didn't have much in the cupboard. Sure guys became available after the deal, but its not always easy to assume you can get those guys later. That all being said, I am curious to see what was out there just that year.
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Post by Grumpz on Jul 29, 2014 11:48:43 GMT -6
I get I get it. You and Lenny have realistic beliefs in that Chevy should of turned a team that made the playoffs once in its existence into at least a Stanley Cup contender... If not a Cup winner, in 3 seasons or less. I'm foolish to not agree. 2014/15 - The official return of the "White Out"!! Oh cool, another reply that's just a deflection. Zero deflection. I feel with the first yr move and all the distractions that came with, followed by the shortened season, Chevy has really only had one real season to work with. This is opinion. I also, based on fact, believe that he's drafted quite well and looking at other teams top picks, we are above average. Also based on fact, I'm happy that Chevy has not over-paid for any UFA's, and has not sold out on our prospects to make trades that obliterate our future. The Pavelec deal I didn't like - which there is a thread whereby I posted this opinion the day it happened, but at the same time, coming up with a true #1 goalie isn't that easy a feat so I'm not sure he had a lot of options. I can't judge the guy as a whole because he hasn't had time, and like JJ said - he hasn't blown things up.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 11:52:51 GMT -6
But there were plenty of teams in worse financial position than the Jets who used compliance buyouts on similar if not more expensive contracts. I don't think you understand how buyouts work.
Even buying out Pavelec now these are his cap hits: 2014-15: $1,566,667 2015-16: $1,066,667 2016-17: $566,667 2017-18: $1,416,667 2018-19: $1,416,667 2019-20: $1,416,667
The first 3 years are his final contract years and actually save cap room. The last 3 years is extra but the cap is expected to be quite large by then.
So realistically if they had used their compliance buyout on him in June it would not "take away any kind of profit made by the Jets", especially considering they turned what, over $13M in profit their first year, and without a doubt that's increased?
If a team like Tampa can afford to pay Lecavalier almost $5M in buyout this year, almost $4M next year, and then just over $1.7M per year until 2026-2027 I'm sure the Jets could afford to buyout Pavelec
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 11:53:48 GMT -6
Oh cool, another reply that's just a deflection. Zero deflection. I feel with the first yr move and all the distractions that came with, followed by the shortened season, Chevy has really only had one real season to work with. This is opinion. I also, based on fact, believe that he's drafted quite well and looking at other teams top picks, we are above average. Also based on fact, I'm happy that Chevy has not over-paid for any UFA's, and has not sold out on our prospects to make trades that obliterate our future. The Pavelec deal I didn't like - which there is a thread whereby I posted this opinion the day it happened, but at the same time, coming up with a true #1 goalie isn't that easy a feat so I'm not sure he had a lot of options. I can't judge the guy as a whole because he hasn't had time, and like JJ said - he hasn't blown things up. It's a deflection because I never once said I expected the Jets to be Stanley Cup contenders after 3 years. You never actually addressed any point I made.
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