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Post by Grumpz on Jul 29, 2014 15:37:32 GMT -6
But there were plenty of teams in worse financial position than the Jets who used compliance buyouts on similar if not more expensive contracts. I don't think you understand how buyouts work. Even buying out Pavelec now these are his cap hits: 2014-15: $1,566,667 2015-16: $1,066,667 2016-17: $566,667 2017-18: $1,416,667 2018-19: $1,416,667 2019-20: $1,416,667 The first 3 years are his final contract years and actually save cap room. The last 3 years is extra but the cap is expected to be quite large by then. So realistically if they had used their compliance buyout on him in June it would not "take away any kind of profit made by the Jets", especially considering they turned what, over $13M in profit their first year, and without a doubt that's increased? If a team like Tampa can afford to pay Lecavalier almost $5M in buyout this year, almost $4M next year, and then just over $1.7M per year until 2026-2027 I'm sure the Jets could afford to buyout Pavelec I know I saw the cost associated with buying out Pavelec which appears right in line with these numbers. It was right around $8.5 million. So let's say the Jets did. So now they've spent $8.5 million, and don' t have a #1 goalie. Now what? Miller's getting $6 mill per season but sounds like he was all wrapped up by VAN long before July 1st. Hillar is getting $4.5 mill. Look at this numbers behind a very good ANA team. Not that great. So you wanted the Jets to buyout Pav, spend $8.5 mill and do...? None of the other goalies available were going to offer the Jets much of anything. Or TNSE doesn't buy him out, pays what he's supposed to earn while actually playing, and pushing him with a prospect they have. You're buyout idea would of cost $13 million if Hillar came here this yr, instead the Jets are paying $4.475 million. Pavelec is our achillies right now, but buying him out wouldn't of solved anything with a pretty hefty price tag. This was the smartest move by the Jets.
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Post by Ric O. on Jul 29, 2014 17:17:11 GMT -6
I'm of the thinking that there's no positive value in keeping the achille's heel at any price. If the intent is to improve the team then these tough decisions have to be made and you'd hope it would be made in the interest of putting a better team on the ice.
All in all, the team would be no worse and probably better if they'd bought out Pavs and started the season with Montoya and Hutchinson...JMO.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 17:27:26 GMT -6
Holy ****ing hell you're delusional.
First off the total is only $7.45M, and they wouldn't have "just spent" $7.5M. They'd be spending $7.5M over 6 years, which worst case scenario is like 10% of their profits over that 6 years to get rid of the worst starting goalie in the league.
The Jets could have bought out Pavelec in June WEEKS BEFORE FREE AGENCY HAPPENED.
EVERY SINGLE GOALIE ON THE MARKET HAS POSTED BETTER STATISTICS THAN PAVELEC.
THE JETS WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED TO SIGN JONAS HILLER OR RYAN MILLER.
Devan Dubnyk - 1 year, $800k Chad Johnson - 2 years, $2.6M Justin Peters - 2 years, $1.9M Thomas Greiss - 1 year, $1.0M
All realistic options!
And I already mentioned the trades too! Scrivens, Fasth, Halak, Neuvirth!
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 17:30:14 GMT -6
I'm of the thinking that there's no positive value in keeping the achille's heel at any price. If the intent is to improve the team then these tough decisions have to be made and you'd hope it would be made in the interest of putting a better team on the ice. All in all, the team would be no worse and probably better if they'd bought out Pavs and started the season with Montoya and Hutchinson...JMO. It didn't even need to be Montoya (who I hilariously forgot to list in my previous post) Literally every single goalie on the market could have been a better option than Pavelec. ESPECIALLY if you just want a one or two-year stopgap while you wait for your goalie prospects to further develop. The only thing having Pavelec is going to guarantee (if he plays most of the season) is that the Jets are going to miss the playoffs but the rest of the team may be too strong to finish with a top-5 pick.
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Post by Grumpz on Jul 29, 2014 20:54:10 GMT -6
Holy ****ing hell you're delusional. First off the total is only $7.45M, and they wouldn't have "just spent" $7.5M. They'd be spending $7.5M over 6 years, which worst case scenario is like 10% of their profits over that 6 years to get rid of the worst starting goalie in the league. The Jets could have bought out Pavelec in June WEEKS BEFORE FREE AGENCY HAPPENED. EVERY SINGLE GOALIE ON THE MARKET HAS POSTED BETTER STATISTICS THAN PAVELEC. THE JETS WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED TO SIGN JONAS HILLER OR RYAN MILLER. Devan Dubnyk - 1 year, $800k Chad Johnson - 2 years, $2.6M Justin Peters - 2 years, $1.9M Thomas Greiss - 1 year, $1.0M All realistic options! And I already mentioned the trades too! Scrivens, Fasth, Halak, Neuvirth! I don't know why I bother, but NO! The cost was $8.5 million to buy Pavelec out. Yes, it's spread out over 6 yrs, but it was $8.5 million. Check Capgeek or try google. So while you suggest paying one of these mentioned goalies the above mentioned salaries, you have to add $1.42 million per season to pay Pavelec. None of these goalies are proven, and what makes you think the Jets or any team for that matter, want to roll the dice and go into a season with 2 unproven goalies? Did you not see the heads that rolled in VAN after trading Schneider and Luongo, leaving only Eddie Lack? Buying out Pavelec was a big financial risk that in the end, Chipman and Cheveldayoff were not interested in pursuing.
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Post by shakinallover on Jul 29, 2014 21:40:35 GMT -6
Gumpz, I think there's another owner with some say on how money is spent. I'm sure Chevy would check with him too before spending his money.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 22:53:56 GMT -6
Holy ****ing hell you're delusional. First off the total is only $7.45M, and they wouldn't have "just spent" $7.5M. They'd be spending $7.5M over 6 years, which worst case scenario is like 10% of their profits over that 6 years to get rid of the worst starting goalie in the league. The Jets could have bought out Pavelec in June WEEKS BEFORE FREE AGENCY HAPPENED. EVERY SINGLE GOALIE ON THE MARKET HAS POSTED BETTER STATISTICS THAN PAVELEC. THE JETS WOULDN'T HAVE NEEDED TO SIGN JONAS HILLER OR RYAN MILLER. Devan Dubnyk - 1 year, $800k Chad Johnson - 2 years, $2.6M Justin Peters - 2 years, $1.9M Thomas Greiss - 1 year, $1.0M All realistic options! And I already mentioned the trades too! Scrivens, Fasth, Halak, Neuvirth! I don't know why I bother, but NO! The cost was $8.5 million to buy Pavelec out. Yes, it's spread out over 6 yrs, but it was $8.5 million. Check Capgeek or try google. So while you suggest paying one of these mentioned goalies the above mentioned salaries, you have to add $1.42 million per season to pay Pavelec. None of these goalies are proven, and what makes you think the Jets or any team for that matter, want to roll the dice and go into a season with 2 unproven goalies? Did you not see the heads that rolled in VAN after trading Schneider and Luongo, leaving only Eddie Lack? Buying out Pavelec was a big financial risk that in the end, Chipman and Cheveldayoff were not interested in pursuing. Then capgeek itself was wrong because their own numbers don't total $8.5M. And regardless, an extra $1M spread over 6 seasons is nothing. It would have been irrelevant that Pavelec's buyout was being paid as well because it would not count against the cap (had they used the compliance buyout). Like I said, if the Jets are in such dire financial straights (which they obviously aren't) that an extra $1.5M seriously harms their profits they have a lot more serious problems than just having a terrible player between the pipes. And who cares if they're unproven? How do you think teams end up with new starting goalies? Did Toronto not take a chance on Bernier becoming a full-time starter? Or Colorado trading for Varlamov? The Lightning trading for both Lindback and Bishop? Hell the Devils trading for Schneider? Carolina signing Khudobin. Phoenix signing Mike Smith. It just goes on and on. The heads that rolled in Vancouver have nothing to do with the situation in Winnipeg and it is not the same at all. Vancouver got backed into a wall because they ended up with too many good goalies, one of them had a seemingly untradeable contract, and they ended up treating the guy with the untradeable contract like absolute garbage.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 29, 2014 22:54:32 GMT -6
And I should be the one that's asking why I bother
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Post by Grumpz on Jul 30, 2014 8:55:54 GMT -6
I don't know why I bother, but NO! The cost was $8.5 million to buy Pavelec out. Yes, it's spread out over 6 yrs, but it was $8.5 million. Check Capgeek or try google. So while you suggest paying one of these mentioned goalies the above mentioned salaries, you have to add $1.42 million per season to pay Pavelec. None of these goalies are proven, and what makes you think the Jets or any team for that matter, want to roll the dice and go into a season with 2 unproven goalies? Did you not see the heads that rolled in VAN after trading Schneider and Luongo, leaving only Eddie Lack? Buying out Pavelec was a big financial risk that in the end, Chipman and Cheveldayoff were not interested in pursuing. Then capgeek itself was wrong because their own numbers don't total $8.5M. And regardless, an extra $1M spread over 6 seasons is nothing. It would have been irrelevant that Pavelec's buyout was being paid as well because it would not count against the cap (had they used the compliance buyout). Like I said, if the Jets are in such dire financial straights (which they obviously aren't) that an extra $1.5M seriously harms their profits they have a lot more serious problems than just having a terrible player between the pipes. And who cares if they're unproven? How do you think teams end up with new starting goalies? Did Toronto not take a chance on Bernier becoming a full-time starter? Or Colorado trading for Varlamov? The Lightning trading for both Lindback and Bishop? Hell the Devils trading for Schneider? Carolina signing Khudobin. Phoenix signing Mike Smith. It just goes on and on. The heads that rolled in Vancouver have nothing to do with the situation in Winnipeg and it is not the same at all. Vancouver got backed into a wall because they ended up with too many good goalies, one of them had a seemingly untradeable contract, and they ended up treating the guy with the untradeable contract like absolute garbage. I've never suggested the team couldn't afford it. I'm suggesting that the cost of buying out Pavelec was not worth it to the Jets - hence Montoya is gone w/ Hutchinson as backup. We know what we've got with Pavelec so if Hutchinson works out, the Jets still have options...like retaining a portion of his salary for only 2 yrs and trading him, not paying $1.4 for 6. With Hutchinson as backup, the Jets have already addressed your desire to have an unproven in net, at even less than the cost you suggested. The one difference is, they haven't anointed Hutchinson the starter yet. Now, if Pav doesn't up his game, and the Jets do nothing about it and play him 55 or more games, my tone will completely change. However I'm 100% confident that will not happen.
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 30, 2014 11:39:09 GMT -6
It's not worth it to cut your losses with an absolutely terrible player?
It literally happens in every single sports league. You just cut them and move on.
The Jets are just too afraid to admit they made a mistake. Especially when you consider they practically blamed everyone but Pavelec.
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Post by lenny on Jul 30, 2014 11:57:28 GMT -6
Yes, and 1.4 over 6 years with no interest and no cap hit and a saving of 4.25 million instead what's being suggested is a lot of ifs and maybes picking up a portion of his salary which would mean you're still losing in the end because in retaining a portion of his salary you are now in addition taking a cap hit plus you are at the mercy of the team you're trying to dump the player to. I think the max a team can retain is 50% of the players salary so lets say in the last 2 years they tell us you take 50% that's over 4.5 million with the cap hits then you will have lost much more plus the additional cap hit. Yes all those messy questions.
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Post by shakinallover on Jul 30, 2014 15:50:50 GMT -6
There are some very astute owners and management who have already made all the calculations and assessments they deem as required. Their choice for this year is to not buy out Pavelec but rather play him until he either plays himself off the team or elevates his game to equal what a number 1 should be. Change may occur but it'll be when Mr. Thomson, Mr. Chipman, Chevy, and Zinger decide it's time. Their business and hockey IQ ranks slightly higher than those of us who frequent this forum....
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Post by chemicalxv on Jul 31, 2014 7:59:56 GMT -6
They literally told us they couldn't probably evaluate Pavelec until they fix the team/defense in front of him.
They then proceeded to literally retain almost everyone on defense except for the one guy they watched walk away with a contract they easily could have beaten (he also may have been ran off due to their decisions).
You put far too much faith into a group of guys whose current signed roster is 96% the same team from last year.
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Post by Grumpz on Jul 31, 2014 8:28:05 GMT -6
They literally told us they couldn't probably evaluate Pavelec until they fix the team/defense in front of him. They then proceeded to literally retain almost everyone on defense except for the one guy they watched walk away with a contract they easily could have beaten (he also may have been ran off due to their decisions). You put far too much faith into a group of guys whose current signed roster is 96% the same team from last year. I think I've heard most of what Chevy has said at pressers but only recall him saying Pav was our #1 going into camp, which quite ambiguous. When has he said anything else like it was the teams fault? To your point about the team being 96% the same, by adding an nhl coach, the roster may be similar but the team is dramatically different. 2014/15 - The official return of the "White Out"!!
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Post by Ric O. on Jul 31, 2014 19:31:59 GMT -6
I believe it was Maurice, not Chevy, that said we won't know how good Pavs is until the team in front of him plays a more responsible game...something to that effect. I'm sure he meant that our players need to play within the system or follow the game plan rather than needing big changes in personnel.
True, not every goal that goes in is Pavelec's fault but I wholeheartedly disagree that his play to date can't be evaluated. What I gather from what PM said though is that he's going to put the system in place to support him, now he better produce - no more crutches.
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