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Post by ekjet72 on Jun 27, 2024 23:49:10 GMT -6
And examples of doing things differently successfully are? NHL 1979 and 1980 Oilers, 1980 Jets. Both WHA teams depleted by rapacious overlords load up on rookies. You know their names and immediate success for Oilers and soon thereafter, the Jets. I am sure there are more. 1990s Detroit?
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Post by bigoljetairliner on Jun 28, 2024 0:17:11 GMT -6
And examples of doing things differently successfully are? NHL 1979 and 1980 Oilers, 1980 Jets. Both WHA teams depleted by rapacious overlords load up on rookies. You know their names and immediate success for Oilers and soon thereafter, the Jets. I am sure there are more. 1990s Detroit? Those are pretty old examples from the pre-salary cap era. The 80's Oilers were definitely young, but most had 4 or 5 pro seasons before they won the first Cup in 83-84. Gretzky & Messier played under 18 in the WHA for a season and were on their 5th NHL seasons. Even a 21 yr old Fuhr was in his 3rd NHL season by that point. Not sure who was playing in the AHL back then, because it seems like most were drafted & immediately started in the NHL. Can't really see a ton of young players on the Wings' late 90's Cup wins, other than 24 yr old Holmstrom being a rookie for the 1st one and a 25 yr old sophomore for the 2nd. Not exactly sure when the switch was made to take a more long term look at developing draft picks, but it seems that is the route most NHL teams take with about 90-95% of their draft picks nowadays.
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Post by 2b9 on Jun 28, 2024 9:21:40 GMT -6
NHL 1979 and 1980 Oilers, 1980 Jets. Both WHA teams depleted by rapacious overlords load up on rookies. You know their names and immediate success for Oilers and soon thereafter, the Jets. I am sure there are more. 1990s Detroit? Those are pretty old examples from the pre-salary cap era.Β The 80's Oilers were definitely young, but most had 4 or 5 pro seasons before they won the first Cup in 83-84.Β Gretzky & Messier played under 18 in the WHA for a season and were on their 5th NHL seasons. Even a 21 yr old Fuhr was in his 3rd NHL season by that point. Not sure who was playing in the AHL back then, because it seems like most were drafted & immediately started in the NHL. Can't really see a ton of young players on the Wings' late 90's Cup wins, other than 24 yr old Holmstrom being a rookie for the 1st one and a 25 yr old sophomore for the 2nd. Not exactly sure when the switch was made to take a more long term look at developing draft picks, but it seems that is the route most NHL teams take with about 90-95% of their draft picks nowadays. Agreed, much different time back then. Cheers, 2b9πππ
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Post by ekjet72 on Jun 28, 2024 11:15:07 GMT -6
And examples of doing things differently successfully are? OK so I picked 2 teams that did well...the 2000-01 Devils and 2001..02 Wings. I got a real wake up, the Devils had 10 players within 2 years of draft on their roster. Some are forgettable but some are hall of famers. John Madden, Willie Mitchell, Brendan Morrison Sheldon Souray, Colin White and Brian Rafelski and others. Detroit? Sean Avery (yeah that Sean Avery!), Jiri Fischer, Maxim Kusnetsov, Jesse Wallin, Jason Williams and Pavel Datsyuk. And that's just 2 teams. So it seems aggressive use of kids from hockey's nurseries works, at least for these teams. A few of the Europeans would have prior exposure on overseas teams.
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Post by ekjet72 on Jun 28, 2024 11:33:19 GMT -6
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Post by ekjet72 on Jun 28, 2024 11:40:58 GMT -6
2011 Bruins 7 guys within 2 years ..Marchand, Wheeler and Marchand. I guess the point is you have teams from the different eras using pro naive players to great success. It isn't necessary to grow them up in a draft and nurture environment. That said, the failures exceed the successes
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Post by bigoljetairliner on Jun 28, 2024 11:47:42 GMT -6
And examples of doing things differently successfully are? OK so I picked 2 teams that did well...the 2000-01 Devils and 2001..02 Wings. I got a real wake up, the Devils had 10 players within 2 years of draft on their roster. Some are forgettable but some are hall of famers. John Madden, Willie Mitchell, Brendan Morrison Sheldon Souray, Colin White and Brian Rafelski and others. Detroit? Sean Avery (yeah that Sean Avery!), Jiri Fischer, Maxim Kusnetsov, Jesse Wallin, Jason Williams and Pavel Datsyuk. And that's just 2 teams. So it seams aggressive use of kids from hockey's nurseries works, at least for these teams. A few of the Europeans would have prior exposure on overseas teams. Good research, though still examples from quite a while ago. I'm not saying it is impossible to do well with a bunch of rookies/youth, but based on recent history it appears very unlikely. Digging into those seasons a bit further, the Devils actually had three of the players mentioned playing in the post-season ( Madden, White, & Rafalski played all 25 games), as did the Red Wings ( Fischer - 22 games, Datsyuk - 23 g, & Williams - 9 g). Since NJ's White only played 21 games the previous season, he was the only rookie while the other two were 2nd yr players. For Detroit, both Datsyuk & Williams would be considered rookies ( Williams played 5 games in 2000-01 & 25 games in 2001-02), while Fischer was in his 3rd season. Notably, only one of these players were playing a top six forward or a top pairing defensive role in those post-seasons ( Rafalski). Datsyuk only had 35 pts ( 70 g) in his rookie season and added 6 playoff points playing in the bottom six. White played 2nd pairing minutes while the rest were bottom sixers on their Cup winning teams. One last thing I might as well mention too....the winning goaltenders were Hasek & Brodeur, probably two of the faces on hockey's goalie Mount Rushmore if it was ever built. Thanks for the trip down memory lane....
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Post by bigoljetairliner on Jun 28, 2024 11:48:26 GMT -6
2011 Bruins 7 guys within 2 years ..Marchand, Wheeler and Marchand. I guess the point is you have teams from the different eras using pro naive players to great success. It isn't necessary to grow them up in a draft and nurture environment. That said, the failures exceed the successes Wheeler traded at deadline by Bruins for veterans. He also did what McGroarty is doing by not signing with Phoenix and forcing a trade to Boston when he was 22 yrs old. He did play a full year for the Bruins the next season and was in his 3rd the year the B's won the Cup & he was traded. But now we are in the salary cap era, so that's great. What a draft that 2006 was for the Bruins, getting players in the later rounds (Marchand - 3rd rd/Lucic - 2nd rd).
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Post by sgtbarnes on Jun 28, 2024 12:27:06 GMT -6
And examples of doing things differently successfully are? OK so I picked 2 teams that did well...the 2000-01 Devils and 2001..02 Wings. I got a real wake up, the Devils had 10 players within 2 years of draft on their roster. Some are forgettable but some are hall of famers. John Madden, Willie Mitchell, Brendan Morrison Sheldon Souray, Colin White and Brian Rafelski and others. Detroit? Sean Avery (yeah that Sean Avery!), Jiri Fischer, Maxim Kusnetsov, Jesse Wallin, Jason Williams and Pavel Datsyuk. And that's just 2 teams. So it seams aggressive use of kids from hockey's nurseries works, at least for these teams. A few of the Europeans would have prior exposure on overseas teams. Interesting research ek. I don't think you have to be a generational talent to be able contribute to a team at 20 years old, depending on the needs of that team. And in my opinion, McGroarty is the kind of player that the Jets desperately need. A talented power forward with youthful enthusiasm. Physical. Fearless. All the things we've been hearing about him since he was drafted. This is a polarizing debate. I won't be convinced that this kid would not be an upgrade somewhere in our bottom 6. For starters. And work his way up from there. And somehow be a negative in the room. His teammates and coaches have nothing but good things to say about him.
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Post by 2b9 on Jun 28, 2024 18:04:13 GMT -6
Iβm not worried about what happens with McGroarty, either he was meant to be here, or he wasnβt, there is a reason for everything, sometimes we have to read between the lines.
Whatever happens, happens, it will all will work out in the long run no matter what happens.
Cheers,
2b9πππ
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Post by Tracker on Jun 29, 2024 12:26:37 GMT -6
Iβm not worried about what happens with McGroarty, either he was meant to be here, or he wasnβt, there is a reason for everything, sometimes we have to read between the lines. Whatever happens, happens, it will all will work out in the long run no matter what happens. Cheers, 2b9πππ Agreed. Chevy has shown himself to be a very shrewd horse trader and will doubtless get good value for McGroarty, but it is too bad that the type of player the Jets desperately need doesn't want to be here. But the sun will still come up tomorrow, regardless of this drama.
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Post by 2b9 on Jun 29, 2024 12:36:01 GMT -6
Iβm not worried about what happens with McGroarty, either he was meant to be here, or he wasnβt, there is a reason for everything, sometimes we have to read between the lines. Whatever happens, happens, it will all will work out in the long run no matter what happens. Cheers, 2b9πππ Agreed. Chevy has shown himself to be a very shrewd horse trader and will doubtless get good value for McGroarty, but it is too bad that the type of player the Jets desperately need doesn't want to be here. But the sun will still come up tomorrow, regardless of this drama. Yep, very unfortunate that McG decided what he decided, and yes, Chevy is pretty savvy, like you said the sun will still come up tomorrow. Donβt forget, we hold McGβs rights until August 2026, Chevy has lots of time, and, maybe, just maybe, McG sees his decision as an error in judgment and changes his mindπ. Cheers, 2b9πππ
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Post by hillman on Jun 29, 2024 15:42:06 GMT -6
Apparently Chevy said there's no update on McG other than he WILL NOT be attending development camp.
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Post by bigoljetairliner on Jun 29, 2024 15:49:25 GMT -6
Apparently Chevy said there's no update on McG other than he WILL NOT be attending development camp. Which is next week, so very little time for the team to repair the rift, if that is even possible. So not that surprising. A part of me hopes seeing the likes of Heinola, Lambert, & Perfetti thrive this season will make him change his mind and join the team for the playoff push. Highly unlikely, but since there is about 2 years to figure things out it's not out of the realm of un-probable things occurring.
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Post by 2b9 on Jun 29, 2024 16:08:08 GMT -6
Apparently Chevy said there's no update on McG other than he WILL NOT be attending development camp. Not surprising. So, this ends up on the back burner for the time being, thereβs no rush at this point to do anything. Cheers, 2b9πππ
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